How Reliable is DVD Media ?

[Debbie]

At the moment I'm in the process of salvaging what I can from my home video library.
It appeares that most of the lower end DVD media will not last long. Infact some of my home made movies on DVDs have developed read errors after only about 6 months or so.
Reading about the subject, it appears that this is not uncommon at all.

Debbie

[KuroNeko]

First of all, make sure you burn them right. By this I mean that currently the DVD writer market is crazy - the competition forces faster speeds all the time and every 3 months a new model comes out. Writer manufacturers no longer take the time to write proper firmware/write strategies for media, and more often than not a model not 6 months old will no longer get firmware support. If a writer burns discs badly, they may play at first, but just a few added errors will make a disc start skipping, produce errors etc. Starting out with the lowest possible error rates gives the most margin. Oh, BTW, an error free disc, even a pressed one, does not exist. Errors always happen but the error correction deals with them easily. But nicks, scratches, aging etc. all make the error rate creep up until the correction algorithms can no longer keep up.

So it is best to think about what media you want to use, and buy the matching writer, not the other way around. For instance, I will use the very best media out there (IMHO ) - Taiyo Yuden, distributed by Plextor. Plextor has a special deal with Taiyo Yuden. They only get the first batches of discs made with new stampers. After a while a stamper will wear and quality slowly goes down. Plextor only takes the very best, but you pay for it - around 1.4 Euro per disc. A little less quality discs, but not by a large margin are other brands using Taiyo Yuden like Fuji's DVD+R at around 0.60 Euro per disc. The difference in quality is measurable but not worryingly large.

Brands often change manufacturers though, so it pays to buy a test disc, check, then quickly buy a small stock. You can test discs with DVDidentifier, a freeware and regularly updated tool.

A good way to see what writer will fit the discs you selected would be reading reviews at www.cdrinfo.com or www.cdfreaks.com. Their forums are also always worth a visit. For Taiyo Yuden I selected a Pioneer 108 (firmware 1.18) and 109 (latest firmware only - v1.40; previously a poor writer), which yield superb results on Plextor's 8x DVD+R and DVD-R discs. Whatever writer you use, always keep the firmware up to date! The firmware holds the write strategy info the writer needs to make the best recoding on a particular brand of disc.

You can test written discs yourself. Various drives have tools that allow for this feature, but it's been shown that the most reliable method - the one that most closely matches professional test tools - is Plextools. You need a Plextor writer for this and unfortunately they're expensive, and not the best for writing at the moment, but just for testing they are excellent.

Secondly, treat your discs right. They should be stored at room temperature, preferably in a spot that has little variation in room temperature and humidity levels. They should be stored in a jewel case or equivalent in a vertical position. Stacking them or storing them horizontally (I've seen people storing them in spindle cases ) is a big no-no. Always keep them out of the sun, as the recording layers are from an organic material that degrades under UV radiation.

Third, get a good well-known brand. I'm sure I'll get contradicted here by people who buy the cheapest discs around and say they don't have problems with them. But a test in a computer magazine a few years back (I'm sorry, I don't recall which or what issue) had a closer look at how DVD-R discs are made. Discs are made in layers, and the sensitive parts are the recording layer, which is sensitive to light, moisture and heat, and the reflective layer which is sensitive to humidity. These need to be properly sealed off, and cheap discs often were too stingy on this matter (you can check by looking at the sides of a disc; the laquer must have copiously run off on them, covering the edges of the various layers). As already mentioned above, regular stamper changes, good quality raw materials etc. all have a serious impact on disc quality and longevity.

German magazine C't often tests discs and writers. They send discs to a lab in Sweden for professional tests. Cheap discs show uneven laquer and write layer application, radial distortions (discs have a guiding groove for the laser and it needs to be very regular), disc warping... Whatever people say, there IS a large measurable difference between quality media and the cheapo stuff.

Finally, (and then I'll get off my soap box ), a study for the American Library of Congress showed that - apart from the things I already mentioned - the type of recording layer plays a part in longevity. Lowest scores were for the Azo type discs (used by Mitsubishi/Verbatim, contradicting their claim of 100 years archival life). Cyanine formulas are most widely used and each manufacturer has its own specific recipy to boost stability and longevity. They came in second. Best longevity is obtained by using discs with phtalocyanine. Unfortunately it's expensive and not easy on high speeds. It's rarely used in DVD-R/+R nowadays. Only MAM-E as far as I know and this is such a small manufacturer that it doesn't get proper support in writer firmwares. MAM-E also uses pure gold as reflective surface further enhancing longevity. But what good does it do (plus these discs are expensive!) if you can't write them properly...

On a side note: the same study also stated DVD-R/+R are better for archiving than DVD-RW/+RW. While these discs do have better resistance to environmental factors (sunlight, humidity), the amorphic crystalline layer that holds the data will over time lose that data (manufacturers claim 10 year archival life but I wouldn't bet on it).

Neko

[Dr Mordrid]

I second the comments about storing DVD's only in crystal cases etc. Wise advice.

For archival purposes I use DVD-RAM exclusively, which is why I'm a big fan of the LG and Panasonic multi-drives.

DVD-RAM's advantage is built-in error correction, which can mitigate the problem you discribe. Medical facilities use DVD-RAM to store digital X-Rays, CT's, MRI's etc. because of its advantages. Maxell has this on their site;

Maxell DVD-RAM White Paper

What is DVD-RAM?

DVD-RAM is a high-performance, re-writable/re-recordable, optical disc that enables information to be read, written, erased and re-written again. It acts similar to a floppy disc, where programs can be run from it, data can be stored, or files can be written and deleted. Current DVD-RAM capacity is 4.7GB for a single sided disc and 9.4GB for a double-sided disc. First generation capacity was 2.6GB for a single sided disc and 5.2GB for a double-sided disc. DVD RAM drives feature backward read compatibility with all CD formats and enhanced durability (100,000 re-write cycles and a 30 + year life span). Double-sided RAM discs can hold more than 14 times that of a standard CD-R. DVD RAM is the format of choice for such manufacturers as Hitachi, Panasonic and Toshiba.

What are the different types of DVD RAM?

There are two types of DVD-RAM cartridges: Type 1 is double sided and Type 2 is single sided. Type 2 cartridges can be removed from their cartridges and Type 1 discs are sealed in the cartridge and are not removable. Single sided DVD RAM discs, when removed from their cartridge, can be read in current DVD RAM consumer players and computer DVD ROM drives. Double-sided discs are not removable from their cartridges and can only be played back or written in cartridge compatible drives and players.

How does DVD-RAM work?

DVD-RAM is different than DVD-R in that it uses re-writable phase change material rather than the write-once organic dye material that comprises a DVD-R and a CD-R. When writing, a laser heats the phase change material in the disc to about 900-1300F, changing its reflective properties from shiny to dull. If the disc needs to be erased, a laser heats the disc again to about 400F to return the disc to its original shiny state. A laser of lesser power is used to read the written marks. These shiny and dull marks represent data to a computer. They are then interpreted by the computer and then translated into usable information. Second Generation 4.7GB (single sided) and 9.4 (double sided) DVD RAM achieve their higher capacities by decreasing track width and laser spot size.

What are the differences between DVD RAM and the other rewritable formats?

First, DVD-RAM media is random access like a hard disk. This enables DVD-RAM to retrieve data faster then the other available formats (current DVD RAM transfer rate is 22.16Mbps). Secondly, DVD-RAM is more robust than it's competition. It is rated at 100,000 rewrites, while DVD RW and DVD+RW specify approximatly1000 rewrites. DVD RAM has 9 internal recording surfaces as compared to 3 internal recording surfaces for DVD-RW and DVD+RW. DVD RAM's metal alloy was created for computer use and therefore affords RAM a far greater number of rewrites. RAM also boasts a sophisticated ECC error correction scheme that makes it ideal for data applications.

What applications is DVD RAM best suited for?

DVD RAM's durability and high number of rewrites make it the perfect solution for multifunction jukeboxes providing high capacity, on line storage for document imaging and full motion video. Because of DVD RAM's speed and error correction technology, these discs are also suited for backup and archiving. DVD RAM also provides videographers with a solution for storing DV and analog productions instead of hard disc or videotape. By using removable DVD-RAM for mastering and archiving instead of space limited hard drives or poor quality VHS tape, users will achieve the highest quality possible and gain added flexibility. RAM is also well suited for the medical or legal industries. DVD RAM is currently being utilized in hospitals and radiology labs to store X-rays, CAT scans and other large image files. This provides medical professionals with a reliable, low-cost means of storing test results digitally so they can be easily accessed and shared with others.

Dr. Mordrid

[Apulo]

DVD-Ram is expensive however, and not many standalone players will play this format. For data archiving it's ideal though, especially if one selects the cartridge format. Pity they dropped this on BluRay.

Apulo

[LvR]

Since most people here will actually be using the "plebby" normal DVD +r/-r flavors, DVD media longevity tests are mostly conducted and referenced Ito PI and PO errors/failures - not just one page there so you gonna have to do a lot of reading to get the idea.

If you have a LiteOn or Sony burner (or any other brand that supports hw error reporting) you can burn your DVD on the media of your choice and investigate its relative quality Ito the PI and PO errors getting reported by KProbe- the lower the better in general - and again many many pages to read and see the examples of results obtained with various media brands.

FWIW Nero has a disk quality test included that is based on KProbe............

If you want to investigate the best possible burner/media combination you can do that too Ito these tests

[Debbie]

Thank you All,
That took "some" reading. Storing is not the problem. The bigest problem is finding good quality media. Most of the stores stock inferior quality media, just to be price competitive. False brand names are also not all that rare. I had media claiming to have "Taiyo Yuden" dye (as stated by DVD Info Pro) but only God knows who was the fool that made them. I know the fool that bought them ..... ME

Debbie

[Dr Mordrid]

DVD-Ram is expensive however, and not many standalone players will play this format. For data archiving it's ideal though, especially if one selects the cartridge format. Pity they dropped this on BluRay.

Apulo

But it IS used in a rather large percentage of the DVD recorders on the market, including Panasonic's which have ~60% of the US market.

As for expense: it's not much more expensive than magtapes of the same capacity, and the arguement could be made that it's more durable since magtape is sensitive to stretching, temperature, humidity etc.

Dr. Mordrid

[xortam]

I'm also concerned about the life expectancy of optical media. I've heard of many stories now of people who have lost their DVDs in short order by using cheaper media. I've only purchased Japanese produced media so far (TY and such) but I'm still not very confident in using them as my sole archival media. I use a DVDR (Panasonic DMR-80H) for encoding and initial storage of my SD video. I store my more precious material (e.g. camcorder dubs) on DVD-RAM as well as PC HDDs. I had heard that DVD-RAM may not even have the life expectancy of a good DVD-R, despite it's sophisticated physical and logical format. I hate to keep consuming so much storage space but I can't trust a single archive at the moment and I'm concerned about using only optical as my lone archival media (i.e. one DVD-R with master archived on DVD-RAM). What is the current thinking on life-expectancy of DVD-RAM and can someone provide a review of various DVD-RAM media? The Maxell report is encouraging but I'd like to see some other less biased reviews. I have a copy of a C't report from last year on DVD-Rs that I found beneficial.

[Apulo]

@DrMordrid: Yep, and it's very popular in Asia so it's not about to die anytime soon. Nevertheless, if you're making discs of family movies to send to relatives, it's not a good idea. And just for archiving it can be expensive if you have a lot of material, it's not something I'd use for everything.

Main problem seems to be the lack of PC writers. Panasonic has withdrawn from consumer markets in many places. In Europe only LG can be easily found and their latest burner got poor reviews and a lot of people complain they fail after a few months use. Not to mention LG does not accept cartridge discs.

As such, DVD-R and +R are the more obvious choice for storage.

[Apulo]

The bigest problem is finding good quality media. Most of the stores stock inferior quality media, just to be price competitive. False brand names are also not all that rare. I had media claiming to have "Taiyo Yuden" dye (as stated by DVD Info Pro) but only God knows who was the fool that made them. I know the fool that bought them ..... ME
Debbie

I have some CDRs that were labeled TY, but I think they're fake. From posts on newsgroups and at CDfreaks I gather Taiyo Yuden is the most faked media out there. Only a big brand like Plextor gives one assurance you've got the real deal but one pays the price... Haven't found any Fujis or Panasonics (another brand that occasionally uses TY discs) here either

For now, I keep my stuff on a Raid5 with plenty of backup Samsungs in stock - this is more easy for me to access data, and it's even cheaper than burning them all on discs. Here's hoping for a cheaper, better mass storage system when BluRay appears.

[dasher]

Why is it not advisable to store DVDs in Jewel cases?

Des

[Apulo]

Says who??

[dasher]

OOPS!

Meant spindle

and also if in jewel case why vertical and not horizontal

Des

[Debbie]

Vertical and not horizantal ? Never heard this before. Will it matter ?

BTW, I have also used media from the same batch to store software backups.
While all the video media has at some point or other errors, those containing the software backups appear to ok.
Both type of data have been burned with Nero.
Could it be the compression on the movies that Nero is not handling well ?

Have a look here. The FAQ part. "Now for the Biggest Miconceptions and Fallacies of DVD MEDIA".

http://www.videoguys.com/DVDburn.html

[Brian Ellis]

Experience: This goes back to when I bought my first DVD burner, a Pioneer A03: I think about 2½ years ago. As blanks were still very expensive then and difficult to obtain, I tried various makes. The only one that I couldn't write on was the Imation 1x. The ones I could were the Pioneer 2x, Ritek 1x and 2x, Verbatim 1x, Dysan 1x, Maxell 1x and Creation 1x (I think that list is about right from memory). Later on, I also added the Ritek 4x, burning at 1x or 2x, after upping the burner firmware.

The only one that was 100% coaster-free was the Creation, but they were not easy to obtain, although their price was right. I managed to get a box of 10 plus a couple of loose ones at about the equivalent of $1.85 each and was delighted by their performance.

What I did find was that, with the 2x blanks, I made more coasters burning at 2x than at 1x. This was very noticeable, not just a one-off.

The crunch came late last year: I wanted to play a DVD-R I'd burnt about 18 months previously. The disk was not recognised in my new Philips DVD player, so I took it upstairs to my tech room/studio/office/junkshop/you-name-it. It did not play in my Grundig, either, so I tried it in the Pioneer burner used to make it. Zilch, nothing, not even recognised as a DVD. I went through every DVD I had burnt and found that there were 12 that were unreadable, all of them Creation. This was not an absolute catastrophe because I still have the original mini-DV and VHS-C tapes but editing time was obviously lost. Every other make played perfectly.

I e-mailed the Creation guys to find out what the hell and they guardedly admitted that they had had a problem, without explaining what. They sent me two 10 DVD-R 4x spindles as a free replacement. These look different (both photopolymer and reflective surfaces are different colours) so I presume they are OK, although I'm cautious about their longevity.

Happily, all the old Creation blanks were used for my own private purposes and I had used other makes for my pro distribution (mostly records of technical installations for the UN) - maybe I instinctively mistrusted cheapo disks!

I recently up-graded my burner to a 16x + 4x DL (Samsung). I have used it with 4 x and 8x blanks and 2.4x DVD+RW blanks. Again, I find I get best results burning the disks at half their rated speed. I have looked at them through a metallurgist's microscope at 400x and it is certain that the edge of the reflective area is sharper when burnt at slow speeds.

As for storage, I simply do not have the room for jewel cases and have been using a different method for a year or so. This seems just fine. I have obtained some A4 plastic pockets to go into a 4-hole ring file. Each one holds 4 DVDs and 4 labels. The outer layer is a rippled polypropylene and the inside (the playing side) is a kind of soft porous felt-like material, probably made from polyethylene terephthalate fibres. 18 - 20 sheets go comfortably into a 7 cm file, providing storage for 72 to 80 DVDs/VCDs in 7 cm of shelf space. The same with CD jewel boxes would take ~85 cm and in DVD boxes would take up over a metre. I have had no problems with this storage system. (I use the same system for all my software CD-ROMs, as well: each computer has a file of everything that is on it, including data back-ups on CD-RWs which are regularly up-dated - no back-up of video work, for filesize considerations, although work in course is networked to a different computer as a temp backup). This method is also a money-saver, as I buy my DVD±Rs blanks on 25-off spindles.

I agree that fretting would be a problem keeping them on spindles (I use spindles only for short-term temporary storage of CD-Rs).