field order standard

[landrover]

I am getting a little confused over this, since both my video editing packages are using opposite settings. Magix Video deLuxe (Movie Edit Pro west of the Atlantic) defaults to lower field first for PAL, (which I always thought was the standard) but Avid XpressDV defaults to upper field first. Furthermore, I have to force PureVideo/DVDMax on my Parhelia to reverse field order, to have proper TV viewing. Sadly, Powerdesk doesn't state which field it'll display first, just that it is reversed. Help me out on this...

[Brian Ellis]

The field order is a function of the capture device. DV is always upper field first. Most analogue capture devices are lower field first, except those that convert to DV. There is no standard. The important thing is to maintain the field order you start with throughout the system. TVs don't care which, but, when viewing on a computer, you should de-interlace, as there is no way that either field order can display well on a non-interlaced monitor.

[landrover]

Thanks Brian,

but what about encoding to DVD compliant mpeg-2 then?
And, argueing your statement that TV's don't care, I do have to use the "reverse field order" setting with my Parhelia, otherwise TV viewing on the client monitor is significantly worse, most noticeable on every incoming subtitle.

[Brian Ellis]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I do all my work from both digital and analogue sources in DV, so I use upper field first throughout, right through to the DVD. These display perfectly on a TV. If I play on a computer monitor, the image "tears" on moving objects, because of the interlacing. This is normal. I can play back to TV from the computer by DV out through a DV>analogue converter and this displays OK.

I have no experience of the Parhelia, so cannot respond to its particularities, nor to its driver software, sorry!

As I said before, if you wish to view a good video on a computer monitor, deinterlace it and make your DVD as frame based, but then it will appear less good on a TV.

[Debbie]

Bri,
PowerDVD and WinDVD can handle interlacing and do quite a nice job. I'm not sure about WMP.

[landrover]

Hi Brian

I know that you'll get comb artefacts when viewing interlaced material on a computer monitor, but that's not the issue. I was just confused about the field order standard for PAL, especially since I noticed that I have to use the "reverse field order" feature on my Parhelia to properly watch Dutch television (via my tuner card) on the client monitor, which is a standard PAL monitor, not a computer monitor. So the problem is not related to interlacin artefacts, because the monitor expects interlaced signal. It's most noticeable on the incoming frame of a subtitle, which produces a slight flicker. And since all foreign language programmes are subtitled in Holland, it's rather annoying to see this a few hundred times on every program.

[Brian Ellis]

Could this be a function of the Parhelia? Graphics cards, I believe, cannot handle any form of interlaced image so, for TV out, have to reconstitute it, along with the lower frame rate, from a non-interlaced signal. The Parhelia is essentially a gamers' card and games do not interlace. However, I speculate.

[landrover]

No, the Parhelia isn't essentially a gamers card, it's essentially a video workstation card. It couldn't compete with the real gamers cards right from the start, though it has some interesting features. But I don't give a rat's behind about gaming anyway.
I've done some research this morning and I think it has to do with my tuner/capture card, or rather, it's drivers. It probably messes up the field order, which I can reverse (again) with the Parhelia. I found out that I only have to use this feature when watching TV thrue the tuner card, and not while editing DV or analog footage.
I'll look into that this evening.
Thanks anyway for thinking along..

[Jerry Jones]

Actually, DV is always LOWER FIELD FIRST if you're using Ulead software.

That is why Ulead's DV editing templates specify LOWER FIELD FIRST.

Analog capture devices often specify the opposite: UPPER FIELD FIRST.

I'm advised some software companies disagree on the naming convention.

Some software companies believe LOWER FIELD FIRST is actually UPPER FIELD FIRST.

It boils down to this:

Use the naming convention that works successfully with the brand of software you happen to be using.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

The field order is a function of the capture device. DV is always upper field first. Most analogue capture devices are lower field first, except those that convert to DV. There is no standard. The important thing is to maintain the field order you start with throughout the system. TVs don't care which, but, when viewing on a computer, you should de-interlace, as there is no way that either field order can display well on a non-interlaced monitor.