MJPEG vs DV

[apolloneon]

I have been using a Canon Hi8 cam & Marvel G400. I now have a Sony D8 TRV620e and Pyro. Both using MSP6. Have converted some tapes to D8 and now am editing. What I am surprised at is that the DV quality is not as good as the MJPEG. Have I assumed the wrong thing that DV would be better or could I be doing something wrong. Can anyone please give me their views or advice. Have I wasted my money?

[johnpr98]

How are you viewing your video
TV or computer monitor

Sre you viewing with Windows Media Player?
Which version of Direct X do you have?

John Price

http://www.johnpr98.com

[Dr Mordrid]

This is a matter that has caused much disagreement.

Let me start by saying I use DV myself. A lot. Just not for everything because, like every format, it has weaknesses.

First a definition: Studio video has a colorspace (color resolution) of 4:4:4. Putting it very basically all 4's is good.

MJPeg, YUY2 and most other consumer and prosumer analog formats use a 4:2:2 colorspace. Without going too much into the specifics this means that the color information is spread across 2 horizontal pixels. Therefore if you have a 720x480 frame the horizontal color resolution is 360 pixels.

Consumer NTSC DV uses a 4:1:1 colorspace (4:2:0 for PAL). With 4:1:1 the color information is spread across 4 horizontal pixels. Therefore with the same 720x480 frame the horizontal color resolution is only 180 pixels.

This difference can and does cause artifacting of the block type. These block artifacts can be most annoying, especially if a diagonal straight line (or worse yet: a shingled roof or cross-hatched object) is in the shot. This causes a distinct stair-step appearance (aka: "quilting") that is all to obvious. These artifacts can also show up at the edge of an overlay effect and are very annoying in titles. The roof or cross-hatched object turns into a checkerboard. Yechhh..

Compositing: using video overlays like graphics, titles or bluescreen/greenscreen effects.

Also problematic is that most low end DV cards use the MSDV codec built into DirectX to render the video for output. This codec got much better in DirectX8, but still isn't as good as the custom codecs used in higher end cards like the RT-2000 or DVRaptor.

The uppance: I use both analog and digital, with analog rearing its head when I see a potential problem in the shoot.

Dr. Mordrid


[This message has been edited by Dr Mordrid (edited 15 April 2001).]

[apolloneon]

Hi

I am using DirectX8 with Windows ME. I am viewing onto tv and monitor through MSP6 and Matrox onto TV.

[johnpr98]

Presumably you are viewing at Full resolution as you have Windoze Media Player 7, This should give you as good as it gets.

Your digital video is a direct copy off the camcorder tape, the codec only comes into play for transitions, F/X etc. Unaltered footage is unaffected and of the same quality as your original footage.

Are you sending your video back through your camcorder with a firewire connection & anlalogue to the TV? This (IMO) gives the best quality playback.

John Price

http://www.johnpr98.com

[wkulecz]

How did you "convert" to D8.

The best thing to do is play the Analog Hi8 tapes back in the D8 camcorder and capture the resulting "on the fly" DV conversion via Firewire.

--wally.

[apolloneon]

Thanks everyone for your help

I have connected my Hi8 to D8 and completed a direct tape copy. After capturing with Pyro I am now viewing with WMplayer and this seems much better. Maybe it was not a waste of money after all, I just may need to understand how to get the optimum.
I was viewing through MSP6 before and the MJPEG was better.
John, on your site you suggest using a different setup in MSP6 instead of the Standard DV 32 setup, can you please explain the benefits as the rendering takes much longer?

Thanks again

What would be the best DV player to use to play back through my Marvel without any stutter and best viewing.

[johnpr98]

John, on your site you suggest using a different setup in MSP6 instead of the Standard DV 32 setup

I am not sure what you mean here, my settings (PAL) are at http://www.price98.freeserve.co.uk/page7.htm

Is this where you mean?

John Price

http://www.johnpr98.com

[dchip]

Last year, I got real excited about DV and sunk all the bucks I could afford to into it, but, I have been disappointed. I used to shoot good video that compressed very nicely. I now shoot superb video that compresses very poorly. I am at standstill in this hobby until some software comes along that can really work with DV and get great results.

[apolloneon]

Hi John

What I mean't was MSP6 have presets with the program. On your website you suggest using others with Field A. I have tried these and playing through WM7 onto TV I am getting good results but on pc not so good. I am just surprised that the Ulead presets are not the optimum. When I play the files through MSP6 the output on tv is pretty poor for some reason, any suggestions or should I use WM7 or is there a better player to use?

Thanks for your help as I am now getting better results by using your advice, I was a little concerned that the Sony D8 option was going to turn out to be a cheap but lower quality answer to digital. Do you know what the improvement is from Hi8 to D8?

[johnpr98]

apolloneon

Your camcorder can receive the digital video signal from MSP6 using Export or Timeline Playback when the Firewire cable is connected to your 620 cam, your camcorder analogue output should be connected to your VCR\TV.

This is the best quality IMO.

Check http://pub9.ezboard.com/fpyro1394faq...picID=30.topic if you aren't using this option

These settings are the way it is for optimum play back:
Field A for DV playback on TV (Usually DV)
Frame based for Monitor play back (usually MPEG)

[apolloneon]

Thanks for the info

Any good players for DV apart from WM7?

[wkulecz]

dchip,

What are you using for compression? I'm getting great results capturing SVHS straight to DV thru my Sony TRV120 D8 camcorder. Encoding with TMPGEnc 12d using the VCD template with motion estimation set to highest gives me great results.

Somewhere along the way between TMPGEnc 12 and 12d the definition of field order got reversed so if you are using a previous template that you "tweaked" that might be the problem.

--wally.

[dchip]

wkulecz: Thanks for the input. I use TMPGEnc beta 12 according to the info under -help-, --about- in the program. It's the only version of it that I have ever had and it's very old by todays standards. I suppose I need to upgrade it but I have not tweaked it with the exception of setting that motion estimation that you mentioned.

I should also qualify what I said earlier by saying that my results are not awful. My VCD's look like bad VHS video but look much better played on the computer. I think my problem is I expected way too much from DV, buying into the "lossless" chatter on various forums. I now know that DV is certainly not lossless and is also not very forgiving during the compression process.

I am hoping that when the consumer DVD-r drives become affordable, I can get one and finally get my edited DV footage onto disc with the great quality it was meant to have. Please take no offense, but right now, anything less, to me, is like chasing the wind. I invested in DV and I will have to invest in DVD.