Faster-Than-Expected Phase-Out of Picture Tube TVs

[Brian Ellis]

Yup, interesting. You would be surprised at the enterprises I've dealt with from the world's largest steel producer down to mom and pop shops filling aerosol cans and recycling solvents. My purview was developing countries from S/SE/E Asia, Turkey and N. Africa, although I've done paperwork vetting from S. America and sub-Saharan Africa, even Fiji! I've seen everything from absolutely beautifully engineered jobs that would make most Western companies blush with shame, down to filthy, bucket shops that think Health and Safety is only in Paradise, both categories in large and small enterprises.

As I'm approaching my ¾ century, I retired from this work at the beginning of last year. The increased hassle of all the travelling was knocking hell out of me, as were the paperwork, language problems and dealing with high-level government employees and Ministers, not to mention my UN masters. But it was certainly the most interesting work I've ever done.

Cyprus is a small Middle-Eastern island, beautiful, almost crime-free (except in holiday resorts), great climate, except for a couple of weeks of torrid heat in summer and a couple of weeks of cold in winter, nice people, but very laid back. Try http://www.aspectsofcyprus.com/ for a Flash presentation.

[Jerry Jones]

WOW!

That's an incredible FLASH presentation.

It makes me want to visit Cyprus, for sure.

I'll add that to my list of future plans and if all goes as planned, I'll look you up and buy you dinner.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[KvHagedorn]

Yes, interesting remark.

However, I'm content to wait -- with my 27" ATSC tuner tube TVs.

The price of the flat-panel TVs will have to drop to $500 or less before I bite (although I have a 20-inch LCD Acer Ferrari widescreen computer monitor).

Because my DVDs... in standard definition... actually look better on the tube TVs than on my LCD.

The high resolution TVs seem to make the flaws in standard definition DVDs stand out.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

So your solution to getting a better picture is lower price?

You will never get the highest quality picture if you are only willing to spend under $500 for it. A certain level of quality has always cost a bit more.. the problem is that quality has become devalued over the past 20 years or so. People have become used to technology solving all their problems and making prices drop. The problem with these expectations is that they are not always going to apply equally to every item. Television prices have been coming down due to several factors, technology being one, slave labor in China is the biggie, though. In contrast to the mainstream, the real story in the high quality ballpark has been added features and picture quality at a more slowly decreasing price.

I sell high end TVs, and for any size below 42," this now means an LCD panel since, alas, the nice Sony 34" XBR set is now no longer available (the XBR970 does not have the fine pitch tube, hence the rock-bottom price.) Two years ago, LCD flat panels were ridiculously expensive ($2000 for a higher-end 22"), the processing power within them was not great enough to stop motion artifacts, and black levels were still pretty mediocre. Now, with the NuVision and Sony XBR panels, the pictures are quite good, but people who are "consumer cattle" (love that one, JPI ) will never know, because they only go to big box stores (or the internet.. an even better way to judge a picture) and look at price.. cheaper is always better, you know. People have become mesmerized to think that they can really get something "just as good" for less money. Right. I get people in our store all the time who tell me they can get a 32" flat panel at Sam's for $X, so why don't I have anything like that? The answer is because we sell HDTVs to people who actually have the sense and taste to care about the quality of their picture. Of course that Eizo or Tatung P.O.S. is cheaper.. Wal Mart practically owns the companies, and the sweatshop employees who make them.. and the minimum wage, minimum intelligence people who work at Sam's are conveniently ignorant when you have any questions, so there's no overhead "wasted" on people who can help you. These TVs are there because the evil empire wants a certain size at a certain price to push on the average guy. It does NOT mean you are getting the same thing.

Your idea that manufacturers see huge profits on these things might be a bit off the mark, but it does vary according to manufacturer. Retailers certainly see little if any profit on the lower end stuff. If we even deal with a TV that is on the lower end of the price/quality spectrum, we can't make a dime on the thing. The retail profit is practically nil. The reason is primarily the mindset of the Koreans and their lopsided distribution policies. Samsung is particularly this way, and LG is getting there. These companies think small retailers don't deserve to make a living, though we are the people who convince a customer to buy their product, then deliver and set it up. We spend lots of time assisting the customer (often one of the growing number of elderly) in learning how to operate this new gizmo, and lots of money on showrooms that will display their product in a pleasing light. We have to carry insurance so if that new plasma falls off the wall, things will be covered, we have to pay $3+ per gallon on gas to go out to people's houses, and we have to pay salaries to intelligent people who speak English that can deliver, install, and set up these items. And yet we don't deserve to see a profit.. a big FU to the Koreans, thanks very much.

Back to the point.. Yes, the fixed resolution on LCD flat panels is a problem, but Mitsubishi and Sony will have new models out within a month that have a native resolution of 1920x1080, and of course Blu-Ray is meant to be displayed at this resolution. There are also several higher-end DVD players that will output 1080i and 720p signals right now.. but you are not going to find them for $39.99. I suggest you look at what the higher end retailers have to offer. Someone like you who is into video owes it to yourself to see the best that's out there. LCDs have come a long way in the very recent past.

[Jerry Jones]

KvH,

You sound just like a car salesman.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Mehen]

newer isn't always better.

In tubes vs. solid state amps, tubes win hands down.

CRT vs. LCD computer monitor for actual picture quality - CRT wins hands down. You can spend more on an LCD than a CRT though...

Oh and Blu-Ray sucks... HD DVD looks solid though.

[Brian Ellis]

In tubes vs. solid state amps, tubes win hands down.

Only for those with cloth ears, but with the proviso that the solid-state is properly engineered. From 1964 to 1974, I worked for Kudelski, the makers of the Nagra, the best professional tape recorders. We did a lot of research on aural sound quality and found that Class A semiconductor amps won hands down. I agree that >95% of the marketed amps use Class B with audible crossover distortion on pianissimo signals but their THD was better than a thermionic amp.

The major problem with thermionic devices, whether you call them tubes or valves, is that they are essentially high-impedance, whereas speakers are low impedance. This implies the use of an output transformer as an impedance converter. This limits bass response and causes phase shifts which limit the applicable negative feedback, as well as causing audible distortion. A good DC-coupled class A semiconductor amplifier has no phase shift, allowing for much greater negative feedback to be applied and is better both with measuring instruments and with instruments. In reality, the beautifully constructed tube amps appeal mainly to the class of user who believes that a) if it looks good, it must be good and b) if it costs more, then it must be better.

I repeat that what I have just said does not necessarily apply to run-of-the-mill semiconductor amps at prices under $500.

I have conducted double-blind tests with top-class audio engineers and musicians, with various inputs and various loudspeakers. The consensus always came out in favour of the semiconductor amp (and none of them could EVER detect the difference between loudspeaker connections using cheap power cable and very expensive so-called mono-crystalline silver loudspeaker cable with gold-plated connectors!). As in many fields of activity, audio salesmanship has its share of scammers who play the suckers with the same hability as an angler playing a 10 kg salmon.

And, yes, I have a semiconductor amp, but not one with a class B output stage.

[Mehen]

I completely disagree and so would audiophiles around the world. Semiconductor vs. Tube is like Keyboard vs. Piano - the keyboard is more technically accurate in representing the note but far less pleasing to the ear. Very similar to harsh digital records vs. vinyl.

edit: it might have something to do with most of my listening being done on a pair of Quad ESL63's.

[Brian Ellis]

This is a futile argument as you obviously have a closed mind on the subject.

And I have a pair of 15 ohm Goodman speakers of, shall we say, very ample proportions. The relatively high impedance ensures correct damping, reducing resonances and very sharp transients. These were chosen after various tests in Kudelski's anechoic chamber.

[SitFlyer]

Oh fine. it will never be a perfect world....and you can't have everything your way............
Has anybody considered that a LCD TV consumes less power than it's counterpart

Not that these things matter to persons with seemingly unlimited monthly income.

[Mehen]

Maybe you should alert all the hifi magazines and all the other audiophiles out there that they shouldn't be using tubes as it seems to be that class-A semiconductor amps are the unanimous decision.

And if you are going for the best of the best - why would you use a gold plated speaker connectors?

Semiconductor vs. tube also has a lot to do with speakers - I'll admit I haven't been looking into hifi stuff that long, but I have never heard of goodman speakers before.

As for musicians - I play guitar and know that at least 95% of guitar players prefer tube to solid state. The main reason, for instrument amplification or otherwise, that I have found people shy away from tubes is the maintenance aspect of it.

[Fluff]

I had a pair of 70's Goodmans Mezzo SL, (UK manufacturer based near London) (1 1/2" mid-tweeter + 10" bass). I loved them till a tweeter blew. Goodmans were good speaker manufactrers in the 70's /early 80's, and new stuff is made in China think the company went bankrupt and the name was bought.

I think Guitarists like distortion. I think that tubes may have a pleasing effect to sound but they aren't maybe they most accurate devices.

Class A is good only drawback is that they are very inefficient, transistor is always on?. Which is why they are generally only used for preamps, small signals. I think around 10-20% effiecient?? so 25watts could use 200 watts at the socket.

But there are many solutions to the same problem.

[Nowhere]

|Mehen|, attachment for you.

BTW Brian, I think I have it from hydrogenaudio.org... you would like the place, they have scientific approach...

[Mehen]

I really hope you don't believe all that Nowhere, that would make you more gullible than they even make the audiophiles out to be.

If all of that were true, the hifi market would be the biggest scam on the face of the universe. Period. Maybe we should start picketing. The reason most people cannot tell the difference between components is because they are listening on completely new components (to them) for most of the tests. When you have the same setup for 5 years and then start doing little tweaks you notice the difference.

[Jon P. Inghram]

If all of that were true, the hifi market would be the biggest scam on the face of the universe. Period.

Hey, you're catching on!

[Brian Ellis]

|Mehen|, attachment for you.

BTW Brian, I think I have it from hydrogenaudio.org... you would like the place, they have scientific approach...

ABSOLUTELY! This ties in exactly with my experience as a professional engineer in the audio/video business, working for one of the most advanced companies in the field (at that time). I have proclaimed the scams - and they are scams - for many decades.

Goodman's speakers were considered by both engineers and audiophiles to be among the best. The head designer towards the last two decades of their existence was Ted Jordan who is really responsible for nearly every speaker on today's market, as he invented the double magnet foil cone that allowed the size of cabinets to be reduced with minimal loss of audio quality. Unfortunately for Goodman's, they were too easy to copy and Far Eastern competition killed the relatively expensive Goodman market.

I think Ted Jordan started his own company, but I don't know whether it is still in business.

And yes, the disadvantage of Class A amplifiers is that they consume ~5 times the power than they are capable of producing at full blast, no matter whether the passage is a pianissimo pizzicato or a cathedral organ playing a sustained fortissimo. Most commercial amplifiers are class B where the power consumed increases with fortissimi but with crossover distortion at pianissimo levels; the problem is that the THD is very low at high level signals, the negative feedback ensuring figures like 0.01% or even better, but the absolute value of harmonic distortion remains almost the same so that, for a signal of 1/100th the power amplitude, the THD becomes 0.01 x 100 = 1% (possibly in reality 0.7%) - and 1/100th is only 20 dB down. To overcome this, the mid-class amplifiers use a sliding AB technique (invented by a guy at Mullard's in England in 1961). The bias of the output stage is varied according to instantaneous signal level and it works class A at low power levels and slides to class B at full power output. And I maintain that DC-coupled Class A is the best for sound quality, on condition that there is no DC offset in the input signal. A well-designed one will be linear from 0 to 35,000 Hz, with less than 0.01% THD at all frequencies and power levels from -100 to +3 dB of rated power, zero crossover distortion etc. Not even the Williamson amp, using two to eight KT66 beam tetrodes, was able to come close to matching this, although it was the best of valve (tube) designs.