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  • HDV Motion Artifacting

    Here are some examples of articles written about the topic:

    1. http://tinyurl.com/eqnzu

    "Motion, especially fast-moving and detailed motion as in sports footage, presents quite a challenge for the real-time MPEG encoders in standard HDV cameras."

    "It’s a challenge HDV can often meet, but not always."

    "This is the downside of HDV’s impressive MPEG compression efficiency."

    2. http://tinyurl.com/h6qwu

    "Shooting with the Sony HDR-FX1, we noticed that the image quality, although generally very good, becomes a bit noisy (or blurred) when we panned with the camera."

    "Actually, this is quite typical for MPEG-2 compression, even in HD broadcasts, as we noticed in the Summer Olympics broadcasts."

    "With the HDR-FX1, the blur/noise is more visible because it features a less expensive codec."

    "Using an HD-SDI converter, we then hooked up the camera with a portable HDCAM deck (SONY HDW-250)."

    "This let us bypass the MPEG-2 codec (with a transfer rate of 25 Mbps) and, instead, record uncompressed HD (with a rate of 140 Mbps)."

    "This resulted in a higher image quality with relatively clean pans."

    "Based on our experience, we also recommend minimizing horizontal movement (panning) as much as possible in order to maintain a clean image."

    "If you need to pan (and want to maintain the image quality), always pan as slowly as possible!"

    3. http://tinyurl.com/zn7c3

    John Beale -- author of the famous Web site about the old Sony DCR-TRV900 -- now uses HDV camcorders, but when he down-converts to standard definition, he has to apply blur filters to the down-converted HDV to overcome unique issues (click the preceding link to read about those).

    4. http://tinyurl.com/bedru

    Wikipedia:

    "Compared to more expensive HDCAM and DVCPRO HD equipment, HDV suffers from significantly more spatial and temporal (motion) artifacts."

    "As a consequence of interframe (temporal) compression, HDV editing is more complex, and introduces greater distortion at the splice point (due to the interdependence of adjacent video frames.)"

    "Compared to conventional SD DV, HDV offers a much higher spatial resolution, so most observers are willing to accept the artifacts in exchange for a higher-definition picture."

    5. http://tinyurl.com/ehcum (by DV MAGAZINE's Adam Wilt)

    "HDV looks very good for scenes of low to moderate complexity and unhurried motion."

    "But a lot of high-frequency detail and/or abrupt, complex motions cause noticeable degradation in the form of posterization, blocking, and pseudo-random noise."

    "Unlike DV, where the most noticeable artifact is localized 'mosquito noise' around areas of high detail, HDV's artifacts can permeate the entire frame, and are scene dependent in their characteristics."

    "Furthermore, each frame's quality varies with the complexity of the other 14 frames in its Group of Pictures (for 1080i; 720p uses a 6-frame GOP), so there's a time dependency to HDV's artifacts that's absent in DV."

    "After a couple of months of working with the HDR-FX1, I still get surprised at how certain scenes react to HDV's compression."

    "For the most part, an HDV camera original tape played back at 1 x speed looks quite good, with artifacts adding a feeling of overall noise rather than appearing as noticeable, localized defects."

    "However, the 'noise' buildup on busy scenes is noticeable."

    (The preceding comments are from Adam Wilt and I agree with him. - JJ)

    6. http://tinyurl.com/guz3s

    Excerpt from Larry Jordan's Final Cut Pro Newsletter:

    On the negative side, the weaknesses of HDV are:

    * The HDV image is 1440 x 1080, which does not precisely match either the 720p or 1080i format.
    * HDV is enormously compressed, creating the possibility of significant motion artifacts when the camera is moved, or zoomed, quickly. HDV uses MPEG-2 compression, the same as a DVD.
    * This compression groups several pictures into a "group of pictures," called a GOP, rather than each picture being it's own entity. 1080i HD groups 15 images into one GOP. 720p groups 6 images into one GOP.
    * This GOP method of compression means that HDV is not accurate for timecode or frames when capturing or outputting. (Editing HDV inside FCP is frame-accurate, however.)
    * HDV uses extreme color sampling, resulting in very, very poor color keying, color correction, or compositing results. (HDV uses 4:2:0 color sampling, the same as a DVD. Here's an article that explains it in more detail.)
    * HDV renders take about six times longer than DV. This is actually a result of rendering the larger HD image, versus an SD image; still, this will take longer than you expect.
    * HDV needs to be conformed, or rebuilt, into a consistent GOP structure before it can be output to tape or exported to a file. This conforming can take an exceedingly long time. (For instance, conforming a 30 second sequence consisting of five shots, took over 10 minutes on my PowerBook. Conforming a complex hour-long sequence could take several hours on a G-5.)
    * HDV can only use Print to Tape, not Edit to Tape, due to the timecode inaccuracies of HDV.
    Jerry Jones
    Last edited by Jerry Jones; 10 October 2006, 17:32.

  • #2
    Not unless they up the motion search precision beyond the 3x3 matrix they're likely using now (most encoders default to this). 5x5 or 8x8 would be far better, but require faster silicon. Bitrate ain't everything.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

    Comment


    • #3
      And this was precisely the problem I observed in connection with the HDV camcorder I finally sold... the JVC JY-HD10.

      Here's the old thread:



      That camcorder shot 720/30p and it had the problem.

      I've now seen 1080i clips and they have the same problem.

      Anything that moves horizontally is impacted.

      Jerry Jones

      Comment


      • #4
        I have the same problem with my SD TV when viewed through the digital box. Comcast cable.

        Terrible. The slightest horizontal motion produces gobs of macroblocking. I imagine they're using high quality converters so they're probably starving the signal for bandwidth to the nth degree.

        - Mark
        - Mark

        Core 2 Duo E6400 o/c 3.2GHz - Asus P5B Deluxe - 2048MB Corsair Twinx 6400C4 - ATI AIW X1900 - Seagate 7200.10 SATA 320GB primary - Western Digital SE16 SATA 320GB secondary - Samsung SATA Lightscribe DVD/CDRW- Midiland 4100 Speakers - Presonus Firepod - Dell FP2001 20" LCD - Windows XP Home

        Comment


        • #5
          No, it's the motion vector matrix being too small. Most times the encoders are set to a motion vector matrix of 3v x 3h, which is fine for encoding speed and family videos, but lousy when things start moving.

          If an object moves between frames and stays in the search matrix then it'll render clear. If the objects motion takes it out of the set matrix then phooey, it artifacts.

          When encoding action in s/w you can take directionality into account. If the action is mainly horizontal then a rectangular matrix, say 4v x 8h or 4 x 16h for really fast things like race cars, can minimize processing vs. a square matrix. If the motion is vertical then 8v x 4h is the ticket. If motion is all over the place then it's back to a square matrix & slower processing.

          Cameras are stuck in square mode of necessity.

          With these cams they obviously didn't think too much about motion searches & just used the defaults. That or they bought the cheapest silicon they could find.
          Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 1 October 2006, 12:01.
          Dr. Mordrid
          ----------------------------
          An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

          I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

          Comment


          • #6
            I've done some more experimentation today and what I'm about to say isn't going to make owners of HDV camcorders very cheerful.

            1. HDV down-converted to SD, in my opinion, looks WORSE than the SD one might otherwise acquire with a good 3CCD MiniDV camcorder. And I'm not referring to sharpness. I'm referring to HDV's problems with MOTION. This is the big shocker for me!

            2. 1080i HDV makes almost no sense for HDTV unless your HDTV is an interlaced tube TV.

            3. 720p HDV -- at 60 frames per second progressive -- makes sense if your HDTV is a progressive flat-panel display.

            I've compared motion from DV .avi files converted to MPEG-2 using the Ulead MPEG.Now (MainConcept) encoder to raw HDV files and -- let me tell you -- HDV has very annoying problems with MOTION -- much worse than DV -- and now I'm wondering if things are any better with AVCHD.



            Jerry Jones

            Comment


            • #7
              Not with Sony's version: too much damned noise, almost as if the CCD has a bad output amp (aka: read noise), which would royally screw the S/N ratio. Waiting to see better examples from Panasonic, JVC etc.
              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 1 October 2006, 19:18.
              Dr. Mordrid
              ----------------------------
              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

              Comment


              • #8
                Get a load of this.



                Shooting with the Sony HDR-FX1, we noticed that the image quality, although generally very good, becomes a bit noisy (or blurred) when we panned with the camera. Actually, this is quite typical for MPEG-2 compression, even in HD broadcasts, as we noticed in the Summer Olympics broadcasts. With the HDR-FX1, the blur/noise is more visible because it features a less expensive codec. Using an HD-SDI converter, we then hooked up the camera with a portable HDCAM deck (SONY HDW-250). This let us bypass the MPEG-2 codec (with a transfer rate of 25 Mbps) and, instead, record uncompressed HD (with a rate of 140 Mbps). This resulted in a higher image quality with relatively clean pans. Based on our experience, we also recommend minimizing horizontal movement (panning) as much as possible in order to maintain a clean image. If you need to pan (and want to maintain the image quality), always pan as slowly as possible!
                Jerry Jones

                Comment


                • #9
                  Applying a little thought to the problem. SD and HD take, within much less than an order of magnitude, about the same bandwidth. But the data in HD should be up to 12 times greater. That means the HD signal is compressed, say, 8-10 times more than SD. Something has to give.

                  DV is already compressed about 8:1, if I remember correctly, but each frame is an Integral one. Provided that the field order is respected, this means that motion is respected very well. HDV does not have every frame as I, but also has P and B frames, to obtain the required extra compression; this is a given. The P and B frames have to be generated in the cam in real time, something that requires enormous CPU and RAM performance. As it is in real time, there is no possibility of multi-pass encoding; it is CBR. A compromise has to be made and this compromise is translated into artefacts to reduce the P and B frame sizes, such as poor motion control.

                  This does not require an Einstein to work out.

                  The cure: I see none in the immediate, until the cam can record uncompressed or nearly so and then encode to MPEG at leisure. This is simply not a practical idea a) because uncompressed HD would require ~1 Gb/sec storage; b) the cost of the required CPU/RAM would be prohibitive; c) the heat generated would burn the hand holding the cam and d) your battery life would be <1 minute!
                  Brian (the devil incarnate)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    John Beale has observed the same problem using his Sony HDR-FX1:



                    His approach to resolving the issue is to apply blur filters, which is an option I don't prefer.

                    Jerry Jones

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jerry,

                      We've been though this before but I've not noticed the problems when moving Z1 video to SD.

                      Also, the nice thing about working with HDV and SD as final output is the ability to crop and still preserve picture quality.

                      But I'm still waiting for a really good prosumer HD camera...

                      - Mark
                      - Mark

                      Core 2 Duo E6400 o/c 3.2GHz - Asus P5B Deluxe - 2048MB Corsair Twinx 6400C4 - ATI AIW X1900 - Seagate 7200.10 SATA 320GB primary - Western Digital SE16 SATA 320GB secondary - Samsung SATA Lightscribe DVD/CDRW- Midiland 4100 Speakers - Presonus Firepod - Dell FP2001 20" LCD - Windows XP Home

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mark,

                        Lots of HDV camcorder purchasers -- I've noted -- deny that it's a problem.

                        But I tend to believe this is the very reason Panasonic declined to join the HDV club to instead develop the P2 (solid state memory card) format.

                        For example, Panasonic developed the AG-HVX200, which was tested by Boston University Ph.D. Geoff Poister.

                        Poster wrote:
                        The first thing that struck me was how smooth the 24p footage looks in comparison to the HDV cameras, which show much more motion stutter.


                        Jerry Jones
                        Last edited by Jerry Jones; 5 October 2006, 21:48.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The real-time encoders used by the "big boys" for sports CBS, FOX, NBC, ABC only really became adaquate for HD sports last fall. Before that, only CBS was mostly watchable, ABC's monday night football in HD was so bad (motion jitter, mosiac breakups) in 2004 I watched in on the standard channel instead. This season all their prime-time games have been very good quality, but the regional games have generally been marginal or in SD.

                          It'll be a while yet before prosumer stuff gets there.

                          --wally.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wkulecz
                            The real-time encoders used by the "big boys" for sports CBS, FOX, NBC, ABC only really became adaquate for HD sports last fall. Before that, only CBS was mostly watchable, ABC's monday night football in HD was so bad (motion jitter, mosiac breakups) in 2004 I watched in on the standard channel instead. This season all their prime-time games have been very good quality, but the regional games have generally been marginal or in SD.

                            It'll be a while yet before prosumer stuff gets there.

                            --wally.
                            I'm watching the RAMS of St. Louis beat up on the Seattle SEAHAWKS, right now.

                            The game is on FOX and it looks fantastic -- even in widescreen SD -- as I'm viewing it on a 26" Toshiba 26DF56: http://tinyurl.com/qv4op.

                            There's virtually no motion artifacting.

                            There's almost no pixelization.

                            FOX uses 720p.

                            This is as good as SD gets.

                            The same game also looks fantastic -- in HD -- on my flat screen monitor -- the ACER Ferrari.

                            I think you're right.

                            This year's pictures look much better than those of previous years.

                            The HDV camcorder video -- sent to me by multiple users -- in contrast exhibits all kinds of problems in comparison to what I'm seeing -- on the same monitor -- from network television sources.

                            I suppose HDV isn't "there" yet.

                            Jerry Jones

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