5.1 Surround Sound?

[JonH]

Hello,

Forgive me if this has been dealt with but I just set up a home theater system and I would like to try editing audio for 5.1 surround sound. I have MSP 7. I don't think the mixer will do this. Do I need MSP 8?

Thanks.

Jon

[Jerry Jones]

I do know that 5.1 surround sound is possible in the current version (version 8).

Here's the "New Features" PDF:

http://www.ulead.com/msp/msp8_new.pdf

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[JonH]

Thanks, Jerry. Think I need to upgrade.

[Brian Ellis]

It is essential to install the SP1 update on MSP8 to benefit from 5.1. However, there is a learning curve! Read the manual on audio in the video editor very carefull, then the section on 5.1. The forums often have questions from users who haven't done this or, at least, have misunderstood it.

[paulw]

Brian,

After reading posts about Dolby 5.1 and the fact that I have just bought a 6.1 home theater system I now have a renewed interest in this but after reading Charlie Hills Getting Results for MSPRO 8 I can't find any mention of it. Is there an adenda to his book or a tutorial on the Ulead site??

TIA.

??

[Brian Ellis]

I think the problem may have been that, when Charlie wrote the book, 5.1 wasn't really working properly; it's tricky trying to write something about what doesn't really exist. I don't think he has written an addendum but you can check his web site. Otherwise, there may be a tutorial on the Ulead forum.

[Hulk]

You might want to have a look around at other editors that are a equipped to mix 5.1 audio. Some have been doing it for a few releases now and have it worked out pretty well.

[Jerry Jones]

The 5.1 surround sound features in Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8 seem to be working here.

In Video Editor, you can start a new project to use 5.1 surround sound, or you can enable 5.1 surround sound in your existing project by changing the project settings.

To create a surround sound project:

1. Select File: New.

2. In the New dialog box, select MPEG files from Edit file format drop-down list.

3. Select a 5.1 template from Existing project templates menu on the left.

4. To customize Dolby Digital 5.1 project settings, click Create.

5. In the Template Options dialog box with the Video Editor tab active, select Multi-Channel (Dolby Digital) Surround Sound from the Audio channels list.

Choose a compression codec from the Compression tab, and select Dolby Digital Audio from the Audio Format list, specify Audio type and Audio bit rate.

6. Click OK to apply the settings.

7. The Save New Template dialog box then appears. Select Save the current settings to save your custom settings as a new template.

Check your target device (DVD-ROM, DVD player, etc.) documentation before confirming compression settings and format properties in the Project Settings dialog box.

While some devices support a broad range of encodings, other devices have strict audio format requirements for smooth playback.

To enable surround sound in an existing project:

1. Select Project: Project Settings.

2. In the Project Settings dialog box, click Edit.

3. In the Project Options dialog box with Video Editor tab active, select Multi-Channel Surround Sound from the Audio channels list.

4. Repeat steps 7 through 9 in the previous procedure to specify custom settings and finalize the change.

Having your project ready for surround sound, you can start working with audio tracks and mixing your audio.

If you now open the Audio Mixing Panel , you will see 5.1 controls replacing the standard stereo sound mixing panel.

All audio channels in the Audio Mixing Panel have a set of similar controls that you will find in stereo configuration of this panel, plus a few more specific controls:

Six-channel UV Meter - Front Left (FL), Front Right (FR), Center (CEN), Low Frequency Effect (LFE), Rear Left (RL), Rear Right (RR).

Center volume control - controls the amount of output sound from the center speaker.

Low Frequency Effect (LFE) volume control - controls the amount of low-frequency sound output from the subwoofer.

To create a panning sound mix:

1. Insert a sound clip longer than 6 seconds into the Audio1 track. Make sure it starts off at the beginning of the track.

2. Cut the clip at 2 and 4 seconds.

3. Move the two-to-four seconds part to the Audio2 track. Offset it slightly, moving forward in time.

4. Repeat the same step with the four-to-six part, placing it on track Audio 3.

5. In the Audio Mixing Panel, click on the yellow dot in the middle of the leftmost Audio 1 pan window. Drag it to the upper left corner of the window.

6. Repeat the step in the Audio 2 pan window, dragging the dot to upper center.

7. Do the same in Audio 3, putting the dot in the upper right corner.

8. Click the Play button to stream the mix. Notice how the sound pans from left to right. Try placing audio clips on more than three tracks, experiment with sound volume and position controls.

These step-by-step instructions are in the Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8 HELP file.

Hope this helps,

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Brian Ellis]

Sorry, Jerry, that is only half the story. What you describe will not produce a file with 5.1, although it will appear to play from the time line. What most people complain about is to make the modifications you describe "stick" into the file. Before doing any permanent modifications in the AMP, it is essential to click on the pencil icon, to write them, for the track or group you are working on. When you have them as you want them, you must then click on the check mark icon: only then are they written into the file.

I've done only one short 5.1 project through to DVD, at the request of a friend. I have a 5.1 card/speakers in my video computer and it seems OK, and my friend seems satisfied. The major item was a street scene where traffic approached the camera and visually disappeared before their sound. As each car passed, I panned the sound to the left rear speaker (it was taken in Malaysia, where they drive on the sensible side of the road, not the right). I also had discreet background music coming from diametrically opposite where the action sound was, on occasion, giving a better separation. I found it easier to separate the stereo channels in Audacity into distinct mono channels, to get the best positional separation. It took me 3 or 4 hours to do the audio as I wanted for a 20 minute "short", but I had to feel my way forward. With experience, I guess it would go much faster.

BTW, it is essential to do this in the main timeline. I find that 5.1 edited in the sub-timelines gives hairy results.

Yes, MSP8.1 (NOT MSP8.0) can produce good 5.1 results with patience for the learning process.

[Hulk]

I don't want to get into a "this vs. that" discussion but I've been using Vegas for audio work for many years now and the audio features of Vegas are really outstanding. Mixing 5.1 is easy as pie. If you've never used Vegas you'll be pretty amazed as the audio handling. I'm in the process of building/setting up a 5.1 mixing facility actually.

MSPro and Vegas both have their pros and cons. Audio is one of Vegas's strong points.

[Jerry Jones]

Sorry, Jerry, that is only half the story. What you describe will not produce a file with 5.1, although it will appear to play from the time line. What most people complain about is to make the modifications you describe "stick" into the file. Before doing any permanent modifications in the AMP, it is essential to click on the pencil icon.

Well, Brian, it's obvious people aren't READING THE MANUAL, if what you say is true about their chief complaint.

The pencil icon is clearly explained on page 141 of the Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8 PDF manual, which is a free download available on the Web page at the following link:

http://tinyurl.com/ea2cy

On page 141, the pencil icon controls the AUTO WRITE functionality.

Auto Write reads and then records the adjustments made to the audio settings. The original settings will be replaced by the new data specified in Volume Fader and Pan/Balance controls.

There's more helpful information on page 143.

Some users are apparently not taking time to read the manual.



Mixing 5.1 in Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8 is easy and -- frankly -- I see no need to invest another huge chunk of cash on another PC non-linear video editor unless I'm switching platforms to use the superior Macintosh platform and Apple's marvelous Final Cut Pro.

Mixing 5.1 is even easier in Ulead VideoStudio 10 Plus.

Ulead has posted a step-by-step tutorial here:

http://tinyurl.com/towfw

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

Have you ever given Vegas a go?

I have a friend with a Mac and he is very impressed with it.

[Jerry Jones]

Jerry,

Have you ever given Vegas a go?

I have a friend with a Mac and he is very impressed with it.

Yes.

However, I also gave Apple's Final Cut Pro a go and I thought it was a better NLE.

Vegas is way overrated by those who trumpet it.

Vegas started out as a multi-track audio program and then video functionality was grafted in after the fact.

That shows in the workflow, in my opinion.

Some people think that's good and that's fine because they're entitled to their opinions.

But I think Apple's Final Cut Pro is -- by far -- the best NLE and I look for Final Cut Pro to continue making serious gains in the market.

When I took a tour of northwest media centers in Portland, Seattle, Boise, Salt Lake City, I was really amazed to see how many of them had adopted Apple Final Cut Pro over all other NLEs, including those by Avid.

It was striking.

Plus, some of the early adopters of Vegas really misbehaved in the forums and that just turned me off even more on that program.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

The stalwarts for any video editing program can definitely get a little overbearing.

I guess since I really am an audio guy at heart, having owned a studio and being in the process of building another now, draws me to Vegas.

One thing I really got to like about Vegas is the ability to do things while video is playing. For example, you can loop a section of video where there is a transition and drop in various transitions and immediately see what they look like, and with every playback cycle playback gets closer to realtime, if it isn't already at the start that is.

Like you said, everybody is entitled to their opinions.

There is still a lot about MSP I like too. Especially the fact that it SmartRenders MPEG-2.

And the MSP people really were nice to me here when I was getting started with video. Of course they still are too!

Mark

[Jerry Jones]

I guess my opinion -- regarding Vegas -- is that it would probably be the best NLE if I were a huge Sony fan.

But I am not a huge Sony fan.

Sony annoys me with proprietary twists on almost every consumer device... power adapters... camcorder audio inputs... accessories... etc.

I still use Sony MiniDiscs and Sony MiniDisc recorders for certain audio work, but -- even there -- Sony has annoyed me by putting off the ability of the user to digitally upload audio to one's computer until the third generation of MiniDisc... the HighMD version... and now the price of alternatives has dropped to the point where I'm saying to myself "why bother upgrading to HighMD?"

So I have this collection of MiniDiscs and I feel I never really got the kind of use out of them that I should have gotten when I consider how much cash I spent.

And that's the second gripe I have about Sony; Sony products are EXPENSIVE.

Then there is the parade of flash-in-the-pan technologies from Sony, e.g. MicroMV, etc.

Here today; gone tomorrow.

When it comes to the professional-level high definition video formats, it seems Sony has chosen to restrict Vegas to XDCam HD.

Apparently, there's no support for Panasonic's professional high definition format... DVCPro HD.

Right?

So then I look at APPLE and the Final Cut Pro product and I see support for EVERY professional high definition format under the sun!

Everything from DV, IMX and uncompressed SD to HDV, XDCAM HD, DVCPRO HD, and uncompressed HD.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/bp3uw

And there's native editing support for HDV:

Unlike other solutions, Final Cut Pro acquires HDV media and keeps it in the original format, with no generation loss.

And there's support for P2 solid state memory technology:

Tapeless workflow support with Panasonic P2 compatibility allows high-speed ingest and editing. You can view and browse P2 devices, then transfer the files you need directly into the Final Cut Pro Browser.

And APPLE -- with DVD STUDIO PRO -- has one of the best DVD authoring programs on the market:

http://tinyurl.com/copqc

And I *know* that hardware conflicts will be less likely on the APPLE platform than on the PC platform... EASE OF USE.

Ulead MediaStudio Pro's strength -- in the past -- was that it worked with standardized hardware (OHCI) utilizing Microsoft's DirectShow, in addition to Video-For-Windows.

One of the early adopters of Ulead MediaStudio Pro was a fellow named Albert Marshall who may still be working in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Albert was quoted by TV Technology magazine:

A real advantage that MediaStudio Pro has for us is its ability to function transparently in a multi-capture card/software codec environment. It has been our experience that capture cards and codecs fall in and out of favor as systems do. Ulead has managed to design MediaStudio Pro’s suite of applications to cross hardware platforms, PC operating systems cards and capture devices. This really minimizes the learning curve.

SOURCE: http://tinyurl.com/yb89g7 Date: 2001

Well, I think version 8 of Ulead MediaStudio Pro is an excellent value.

It's easily the best MediaStudio Pro version ever released.

Nevertheless, I'm deeply worried about the future of this product due to InterVideo's largely weak ownership and -- more recently -- the tone of the Corel acquisition press releases.

Prior to those Corel press releases, I was excited about Corel's acquisition.

But then came the press releases.

The Corel acquisition press releases did not even mention Ulead MediaStudio Pro!

The Corel acquisition press releases focused on VideoStudio, DVD MovieFactory and -- basically -- Ulead's consumer-level products.

Ulead PhotoImpact -- arguably a professional-level program -- did get mention, but it seemed to be the only Ulead "professional-level" program that was mentioned.

Cool 3D Production Studio, DVD Workshop, and MediaStudio Pro seemed to get no mention whatsoever.

That's what I call a marketing mistake -- unless -- your marketing goal is to abandon professional-level customers to focus only on consumers.

In addition, I recently visited Corel's Ventura newsgroup and I did not like what I read.

The very same dedicated group of professional-level Corel Ventura users is there, but they're very sarcastic about Corel.

They clearly suspect Corel has ignored them and the Ventura product since the most recent version 10 of Ventura was released.

Ventura was the first professional-level desktop publishing program on the PC platform.

And it had the largest following.

Under Corel's ownership, however, the product's following dwindled and both Adobe and Quark captured the lion's share of the desktop publishing market.

Corel is now under new management, but I am now uncertain about their commitment to support professional-level users.

And Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8 -- with no apparent support for professional-level high definition formats -- seems to be a high-end "consumer" program these days.

Sure, the Ulead products all support HDV, but HDV is arguably not a professional-level high definition video format; HDV is a consumer format.

The camcorder manufacturers do build pro features into their high-end HDV camcorders, but I think the HDV format is...

a. fading (tape-based)

b. still largely a consumer format

c. isn't a future-oriented format

So where does that leave Ulead's video editing products?

Apple, on the other hand, supports ALL professional-level high definition formats, including XDCam HD by Sony and DVCPro HD by Panasonic.

That tells me APPLE is clearly devoting resources to support as many professional-level users as possible.

Sony's Vegas seems to be a niche product for people who are enthusiast about Sony products, in particular, and not so much for people who are more enthusiastic about Panasonic's professional-level high definition formats.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net