Major Bug: Corel (Ulead) MPEG Smart Render Glitches

[Jerry Jones]

Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 apparently doesn't support all legal resolutions for NTSC DVDs.

In addition, it seems to constrain custom MPEG resolution output to a handful of limited output parameters.

I'll hang on to this software; I've paid for it.

And I'll continue to study it.

If Corel could simply fix the smart render capability and output quality in its products, I would stay with them.

But the fact of the matter is they've had years -- years -- to make it work correctly and apparently it's too hard for them.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Think you missed the point there.
I order to "encode a file" in that 704x480 res of yours in Studio you have to use a "custom" setting and not a "DVD" preset - yes we know that 704x480 is legal on a DVD, but as I said Pinnacle does not treat it as such (yet anyway).

[Jerry Jones]

Why on earth would any software need to "re-encode" the audio to MPEG on import when the audio on the DVD disc is already MPEG AUDIO?

It shouldn't re-encode at all; it should simply transfer the data.

As far as I can see, that's all it really does.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

As for you importing the file in that res from the Panasonic - Pinnacle re-encodes the audio to mpeg on import from DVD.

[Jerry Jones]

I understand the Magix software has smart render, but because it's also based on MainConcept -- like that of Corel -- it also has the image distortion problem at I-frame cut points.

So cross Magix off the list, too.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Try and actually capture (not import) in a "DVD quality" preset with Studio itself - if your TL is short enough to allow that bitrate to be used, then Smartrendering will (should) work and you can see that happening too (I do).

[LvR]

Actually, I haven't "missed the point" at all.

Actually you did - by a bit more than a mile.

I am not defending the Pinnacle developers or decisions as you would seem to think - I am stating facts I have learned through bitter experience - facts that as you continue to experiment you will learn too.

Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 doesn't support all legal resolutions for NTSC DVDs.

That's incredibly dumb.

In addition, it severely constrains the user to a handful of incredibly limited output parameters.

This software is for consumers who do not care about preserving source file quality.

In my opinion, this software makes no sense at all for anybody except extremely non-technical users.

So why shout at me? Did you possibly miss my original comment "so long as you don't want to use the app as a real frame-accurate video editor to consistently reproduce the exact same results."

So I'm currently of the opinion that the reason I can't discern any logic to the smart render technology in this particular software is due to the fact there *is* no logic to it.

Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't.

Bingo - you got it in a few short days - I have been battling the crap for years

Why on earth would any software need to "re-encode" the audio to MPEG on import when the audio on the DVD disc is already MPEG AUDIO?

It shouldn't re-encode at all; it should simply transfer the data.

As far as I can see, that's all it really does.

I am telling you its not as simple as that - based on experience and lots of fights on the subject.

Get yourself a tool like MpegInspector (that can investigate and evaluate mpeg streams in minute detail) and a commercial DVD or any other DVD with, for example, an AC3 or Dolby 5.1 audio track and try and import that in Studio - if you get it imported I can guarantee you will end up with a imported file with mpeg audio in Studio - irrespective of your requirements or conviction.

Again - I am not defending the Pinnacle developers or their decisions as you would seem to think - I am stating facts I have learned through bitter experience - facts that as you continue to experiment you will learn too.[

[Jerry Jones]

But this doesn't prove that Studio Ultimate is re-encoding MPEG AUDIO (MPEG Audio Layer 2).

Actually, the Panasonic VDR-M30 records "MPEG Audio Layer 2" or LPCM, depending on how one chooses to adjust it.

What's probably happening with the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software is that it is re-encoding any format that it doesn't support in the timeline.

Take a look at another puzzling thing about Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11.

You can export your timeline to a DVD with a variety of DVD audio output options, including...

1. PCM
2. MPEG-1 Layer 2 (MPEG AUDIO)
3. Dolby Digital 2-channel
4. Dolby Digital 5.1-channel

Now, contrast that with the strange fact that the Pinnacle software will not allow you to write your timeline out to an MPEG-2 file with these same options.

Instead, you are limited to "MP2" (which I assume is MPEG AUDIO) or PCM.

There's no AC-3 (Dolby) output to file option.

So I suspect that the software is actually copying existing MPEG AUDIO streams when capturing from camcorder DVD discs (because the timeline can handle MPEG AUDIO).

By the way, I don't mean to sound like I'm "shouting" at you; all I'm suggesting here is that the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software doesn't make a lot of sense in many ways.

I think it can cut DV .avi files just fine.

I'm now leaning toward the notion that -- on the PC platform -- the editing of high definition MPEG-2 files is best accomplished with the help of a good intermediate codec even though I hate the idea of spending so much time transcoding and I also hate the idea of Cineform .avis consuming massive amounts of hard disk space.

The Cineform Neo HDV is said to convert HDV long GOP MPEG-2 files into more editable .AVI files that can be used in any Windows NLE, including Studio or any of the Corel applications.

I'm now looking at this: http://www.cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm

I sold my Panasonic VDR-M30 many months ago; I've just kept the files I recorded with that camcorder.

What I'm really wanting to do is use my AVCHD camcorder's files.

The Cineform Neo HDV product supposedly includes a software tool called "HDLink" that allows one to convert AVCHD files to more editable .avis:

http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/AVCHD_FileConversion.htm

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Get yourself a tool like MpegInspector (that can investigate and evaluate mpeg streams in minute detail) and a commercial DVD or any other DVD with, for example, an AC3 or Dolby 5.1 audio track and try and import that in Studio - if you get it imported I can guarantee you will end up with a imported file with mpeg audio.[

[LvR]

I have to apologize for stating and assuming history to be current:

The last fight I had about importing DVDs with audio other than mpeg was about a month ago before the latest 11.1 studio patch came out.

Your comment made me go back and check on the import DVD thing, and it would seem that they have indeed now eventually addressed and sorted that particular hassle - I can import AC3 and Dolby 5.1 audio just fine off DVDs with those and even use those files with AC3/Dolby 5.1 on the TL in Studio.

[Jerry Jones]

That's interesting new information.

So they've fixed that, which is good.

I'm not totally down on the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate software, by the way.

I think there are some pretty cool features in the program.

But their way of going about DVD authoring is strange to my workflow.

I think they're assuming that the user is going to author DVDs from timeline to disk.

With the Ulead software, my workflow is to write a single DVD-ready MPEG-2 file to my hard disk from the timeline.

Then I import that file into my DVD authoring module.

So I'm used to the two-step workflow.

With the Pinnacle software, to avoid re-encoding traps, you have to get used to encoding the timeline directly to disc.

So once I get used to that workflow, I can avoid some of the re-encoding traps.

But I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that with any of the sub-$150 applications, it is best to follow a couple of simple rules when working with long GOP MPEG-2.

1. transcode standard definition MPEG-2 files to DV .avi for editing and accept the slight quality loss from the transcoding

2. transcode high definition AVCHD, MPEG-4 and HDV files to Cineform .avi intermediate (I-frame) for editing and then transcode back to the target delivery format

Yes, these steps consume far more hard disk space and -- yes -- the transcoding takes a lot of time.

But this workflow seems to offer advantages over the glitches that one encounters when attempting to directly (natively) edit the long GOP MPEG streams.

I've updated my Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software with the latest update and I've noted that one can edit AVCHD in the timeline directly -- however -- there's no smart AVCHD rendering so you have to take a quality hit when you send your timeline to an AVCHD disc.

The Pinnacle representatives on the Pinnacle Web board have stated that smart AVCHD rendering is coming in a future version.

So when that day comes, I'll be interested to find out if they will have managed to get it working flawlessly; no doubt it will require an incredibly fast computer.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Technoid]

Maybe they don't care that much about the smartrendering , because the majority of the target audience has a standard dv cam producing dv files.

[Jerry Jones]

If so, it's a pretty short-term management decision.

MiniDV camcorders are dwindling; every electronics store I visit these days has almost stopped selling them in favor of HDD, DVD, and SD.

I-frame DV .avi files are gradually being replaced by standard and high definition long GOP files.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

Maybe they don't care that much about the smartrendering , because the majority of the target audience has a standard dv cam producing dv files.

[Technoid]

If so, it's a pretty short-term management decision.

Not really, they just might be opting for the Microsoft way: Not fixing it in the current ver and offer it as a feature to spur people to upgrade

MiniDV camcorders are dwindling; every electronics store I visit these days has almost stopped selling them in favor of HDD, DVD, and SD.

dv has been around since 95', that ads up to a huge customer base, people rarely buys new cams until the old one breaks.

]
I-frame DV .avi files are gradually being replaced by standard and high definition long GOP files.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Yeah, my Grandpa has a dvd recording camera and my sister has a HDD cam and they both record in Mpeg2 and its a bitch to edit.
Whoever decided on those "innovations" needs to be flogged!

the dv cams are being replaced by a inferior system

The only reason Mpeg2 is used is because of the initial storage deficiency.

And the "just take it out of the cam and put it in the dvd player and view" effect.

Nowadays with hard drive sizes literally exploding there is no need to use editing unfriendly codecs like mpeg2

[Jerry Jones]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I'm mistaken.

The Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software might not seem to be smart rendering my MPEGs because I'm used to much faster smart rendering in other software.

The timeline scrubber in the Pinnacle Studio software seems to be going only one frame at a time, but when I look at the numerical count of frames being written to my computer's hard disk, it's clearly writing more than one frame at a time.

So maybe it *is* smart rendering, but doing it much more slowly than what I've been used to in the past.

Today, I've been doing some more comparisons between the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 output with the output of both Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus and Corel MediaStudio Pro 8.

VideoStudio and MediaStudio Pro seem to have identical render engines so their output quality is practically the same.

But I am really astonished to see how much better the Pinnacle render engine performs on virtually *all* tests.



First, I took a Panasonic VDR-M30 DVD camcorder long GOP MPEG-2 standard definition file...

NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
MPEG files
24 bits, 704 x 480, 29.97 fps
Upper Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8800 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps

Then I transcoded this file in Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 to be a type 2 DV .avi file.

Then I transcoded this file in Ulead's software to be both type 2 and type 1 DV .avi files.

Then I did a visual comparison of the playback and the Pinnacle DV .avi file was far better than those from either Corel (Ulead) NLE.

Next, I took the Pinnacle DV .avi file and I converted it back to MPEG-2 at two different data rates... 8500 and 9800... using Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11.

Next, I took the Pinnacle DV .avi file and I converted it back to MPEG-2 at 9800 in the Corel (Ulead) software.

The Pinnacle MPEG-2 output was superior at both data rates to the Corel output; there was more visible detail in all scenes.

In the past, I found it difficult to believe that the output from one non-linear video editor could be so much better than the output of another non-linear video editor.

I was clearly mistaken.

The difference is quite stark here.

So even if the Pinnacle software isn't employing "minimal" mpeg rendering, it would seem to be a point that isn't even that important if the render quality -- in the end -- is so much superior.

Man, I'd really love to be able to afford the Adobe and the Sony software to find out if their render quality is as good as that of Pinnacle.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net