Microsoft Vista Service Pack 1: Early 2008

[Jerry Jones]

MICROSOFT SPOKESPERSON ON VISTA:

"We are getting notes back that some people are having not so great experiences."

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201802961

Performance, compatibility, and reliability have been among the biggest complaints of Windows Vista users, and the service pack will focus on those three major trouble areas.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

http://www.news.com/The-XP-alternative-for-Vista-PCs/2100-1016_3-6209481.html

While Microsoft is still pushing Vista hard, the company is quietly allowing PC makers to offer a "downgrade" option to buyers that get machines with the new operating system but want to switch to Windows XP.

Incredible.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Just goes to show how good XP is. I'm sure Vista is better on paper but will most likely take a service pack to get it right in the same way that XP was good from the start but great after SP2. I'm looking foward to Vista after a service pack or two. Right now XP is da bomb for me.

I'll probably move to Vista when I can go 64 bit with the OS and ALL of my applications. Until then I'll be all warm an cozy with XP!

[Jerry Jones]

Well, I don't think Microsoft XP is really that wonderful, either.

You know, for many years, the columnist for PC MAGAZINE, John Dvorak, would poke fun at users of Macintosh computers.

In July of this year, however, Dvorak became a "convert" of sorts.

Here is the link to his column:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2162397,00.asp

In my opinion, I sense that the OS is more solid than Microsoft Windows, but I cannot say why exactly. I suspect that the modern underpinnings of the Unix kernel have something to do with it.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

It is my opinion that since Apple controls the hardware, software, bios, everything that goes into the system an uninformed Apple buyer can't buy a crap system based on specs alone thinking he/she is getting a deal. For example, I'm sure you've had (Windows) friends brings advertisement to you showing what a great "deal" they can get on some noname system with the same specs (processor, RAM amount, hard drive size, etc...) as another system from a recognized builder. That can't happen with Apple and that's definitely a plus for the person that knows nothing about computers. On the downside you pay more for the hardware, have less upgrade options, less software options, and less "market access" to new products in general.

There is much more competition in the Windows world and that brings a wide range of systems to market. Some not so good and some very good. You will hear about the not so good systems and you won't hear about the good ones. Plus since with Windows user base dwarfs the Apple base you will see and hear more about Windows issues based on the descrepency in users alone.

I personally can't remember the last time XP has froze or crashed on me. What does happen very infrequently is an application will come down based on a problem within that application, not the OS.

I have been reading PC Magazine for nearly 20 years and Dvorak has made so many crazy statements and predictions I consider him more entertainment than information. I still believe sites like Anandtech are most informative and balanced when it comes to computers.

That being said I hope that Apple gains market share on MS in the same way I hope AMD can bounce back to profitability with Barcelona. Competitions is always good for the computer marketplace.

[Nowhere]

Jerry, I don't think that Dvorak, who contantly spawns bullshit and is riding on the "fame" of Dvorak keyboard, is a good example of convert
Well, whadda you know..."modern underpinnings of the Unix kernel"

[Nowhere]

It is my opinion that since Apple controls the hardware, software, bios, everything that goes into the system an uninformed Apple buyer can't buy a crap system based on specs alone thinking he/she is getting a deal. For example, I'm sure you've had (Windows) friends brings advertisement to you showing what a great "deal" they can get on some noname system with the same specs (processor, RAM amount, hard drive size, etc...) as another system from a recognized builder. That can't happen with Apple and that's definitely a plus for the person that knows nothing about computers. On the downside you pay more for the hardware...

Not really... Sure, if you compare it to crap hardware; but, for example, I need a laptop, and the cheapest available here is Macbook. Note: laptop = I don't want to carry another bag with me and be a slave of electric outlets.
Here's hoping that Asus Eee PC (but I'll have to wait for 2nd gen hardware, looks much better :/ ) and/or OLPC offshots will change that a bit...

...Plus since with Windows user base dwarfs the Apple base you will see and hear more about Windows issues based on the descrepency in users alone.

I personally can't remember the last time XP has froze or crashed on me. What does happen very infrequently is an application will come down based on a problem within that application, not the OS.

Sure, Windows itself is a good & stable OS...but it still freezes/crashes; mostly because of crapware and...malware. Yep, some think that it's just a matter of market penetration. But ask yourself this: assuming we'd have 33% Windows, 33% OS X and 33% Linux...which do you think would have most malware?

[Jerry Jones]

It's a total myth that Microsoft Windows PCs are less expensive.

Apple is the new low cost alternative.

Macintosh "Mini" models start at $599:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=9A515E80&node=home/desktop/mac_mini

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Not really... Sure, if you compare it to crap hardware; but, for example, I need a laptop, and the cheapest available here is Macbook. Note: laptop = I don't want to carry another bag with me and be a slave of electric outlets.
Here's hoping that Asus Eee PC (but I'll have to wait for 2nd gen hardware, looks much better :/ ) and/or OLPC offshots will change that a bit...



Sure, Windows itself is a good & stable OS...but it still freezes/crashes; mostly because of crapware and...malware. Yep, some think that it's just a matter of market penetration. But ask yourself this: assuming we'd have 33% Windows, 33% OS X and 33% Linux...which do you think would have most malware?

I may not have been explaining my point clearly. If you buy a Mac you get a Mac. I believe there is a certain standard of quality, testing, support built in to every system. But if you buy a PC you can get anything from a very high end Dell or HP system with a very good chance of being a long-lasting stable performer to a rock bottom priced internet special bought off e-bay put together by who knows, on support, hardware conflicts, illegal software... There is more variation within the Windows world than within the Mac world from a hardware and software point of view. That fact has both advantages and disadvantages for each platform I would think.

As for your other question I really don't know. When those clever idiots "get at" an OS I think they get get at just about any one out there. When market penetration increases so many other factors increase with it.

[Hulk]

It's a total myth that Microsoft Windows PCs are less expensive.

Apple is the new low cost alternative.

Macintosh "Mini" models start at $599:

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=browse&mco=9A515E80&node=home/desktop/mac_mini

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Two words Jerry. "No way."
Don't even kid yourself here.

Okay let's compare the Mac Mini you linked to a Dell Inspiron System I just specified on the Dell website. Right now, today, what you can buy.

Mac Mini 599+98 for keyboard and mouse = $697
Dell Inspiron 530 = $659 (after $350 coupon code, which are available every day)

Mac Dell
Case mini mid size ATX
cpu 1.83 Core 2 Duo 2.33 Core 2 Duo
RAM 1GB DDR2 667 2GB DDR2 666
Hard Drive 80GB Serial ATA 320GB Serial ATA
Keyboard/Mouse Yes Yes
Optical Drive "combo drive" no specs 16X DVD +-/RW
Video ? (I guess integrated) nVidia descrete 8300GS
Bluetooth No Wireless Hub
Media Reader No 13 in 1 built in
Wireless "g" card No Yes
Firewire port ? Yes
OS X Vista Premium

So let's see. For LESS money you get a much faster cpu, 4 times larger hard drive, discrete video solution, bluetooth, media reader, wireless g support, ....

Go ahead and spec out any Mac and I'll beat it price and performance wise in the PC world.


And the Apple upgrade prices are INSANE! $150 for an outdated $160GB drive! Are they serious? $150 for an additional 1GB of memory? $50 for a modem?

And the Dell system can be easily upgraded with standard off the shelf parts.

And if you know what you're doing I don't even want to get into what you can build in the PC world for the money.

I'm sorry but the Apple pricing is crazy. Nuts. Out of this world.

And why would they ship and "entry level" system without a keyboard and mouse? I guess they wanted to show a low $599 entry price point. Yeah, for 1GB, a 1.83 processor, and a 80GB drive. All outdated hardward in a non-expandable box. Jeez for $50 more you could put in a nVidia 8600 series video card which would allow full decode of HD content and still be at about the same price range as the near useless (due to slow cpu and small hard drive, not to mention RAM) mini.

Hey we can argue stability, and which OS is better, and who has the better applications all day long. I like Windows you like Mac, that's fine, there are good points to be made there.

But as far as price it's nonsense. They both use the same hardware but one costs way more.

[Nowhere]

...
Go ahead and spec out any Mac and I'll beat it price and performance wise in the PC world.
...

OK, try (actually this might be very usefull for me...anyway, I couldn't do it)

Macbook.

...near useless (due to slow cpu and small hard drive, not to mention RAM) mini.
...

Near useless?...I'd say much more than enough for typical user...

...
But as far as price it's nonsense. They both use the same hardware but one costs way more.
...

I guess in this case miniaturisation costs a bit...

[Jerry Jones]

Mark,

You messed up big time with your post.

Are you aware that you made no mention of the software bundle that is INCLUDED with the Mac Mini????????

Take a look:

http://www.apple.com/ilife/

OK, let's count 'em:

1. iPhoto
2. iMovie
3. iDVD
4. Garage Band
5. iWeb
6. .Mac Web Gallery

Here's the summary of what is new in iLife '08:

http://www.apple.com/ilife/whatsnew.html

Now are you actually going to try to convince me that your DELL is going to ship with an equal software suite?

You wouldn't try to pull the wool over my eyes, would you?

Are you aware how much it would cost for PC platform programs that work AS WELL as the programs INCLUDED on the Mac Mini?

Kind of skews your calculations, doesn't it?

Finally, you surely aren't going to claim that Windows -- as an operating system -- is anywhere close to the Macintosh operating system, are you?

C'mon.

Thanks for giving me my daily laugh.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Let me add one more significant point, Mark.

The Mac Mini also includes the APPLE INTERMEDIATE CODEC, which makes it easy for the Mini's processor to edit HD video.

The APPLE INTERMEDIATE CODEC is an I-FRAME codec, included in the iMovie application.

This codec alone gives parity with the Cineform intermediate codec, which costs Windows PC users $250 *or* they have to buy an NLE that has built-in Cineform support.

Your calculations failed to factor that.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

One more thing...

The APPLE Mac Mini is cuter than the Dell:

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

Case closed.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Court is back in session.

This is a video editing forum right? I was trying to spec out a system that could actually edit video. Have fun editing with you 1.83GHz processor and 80GB hard drive.
Let me say it again the Mac Mini is a joke from a hardware perspective. I could spec out an equally set up hardware Dell system for much less and it would actually be able to do something. By that I mean it would have a keyboard and mouse!!!

Software bundle. Never used that stuff so I can't comment but I have friends that have them and whenever they need to do anything they ditch I-movie and come to me for help with a real NLE. Garage band? Yeah my friend uses it and it saves files in a proprietary format so he can't even send me tracks to help him compress, equalize, etc... For anyone serious it's all too basic from what I've seen.

As for the OS comparision I'm not going to go there. I like XP, it works for me and I don't have significant time using a Mac to make a meaningful comparison.

That Mac mini is quite the joke though. $40 hard drive, $50 motherboard, $90 cpu, $30 power supply, and a $20 case. Jeez like you need the "elegance" and supposed stability of a Mac to surf the internet and create text documents 'cause you ain't doing much else with that box of overpriced, outdated hardware.

Like I said I'm not going to argue which is better but I DO know which gives you more value for the money.

As for cuter I'll agree.

The Mac mini is way cuter than my computer in the same way a Volkswagon Beetle is way cuter than a Ferrari F430.

Have a nice day