Thinking of moving your NLE to the Mac? Think again.

[wkulecz]

Odds are, people who buy a new Windows PC are coming in with pretty low expectations from past experience, making the low satisfaction numbers even more distressing.

OTOH new Apple buyers, expect the moon and it seems mostly get it.

I'm still meeting my needs for video and photo editing with Windows 2000 and using Linux for just about everything else.

Personally, I got off the Windows bus when XP came out, I still have to develop for it at work because of its market dominance, but others here are starting to see the benefits of Linux. We've always been over 50% or more Mac in my work group (was 100% Mac when I started, but when they killed the Mac clones, we moved all the stuff that needs third party hardware to Windows).

--wally.

[Jerry Jones]

Wally,

Linux faces one major difficulty.

Video/audio editing and other "creative professional" endeavors require EASE OF USE that Apple succeeds in providing.

In my opinion, Linux *can* be a huge success in the future.

However, my view is that Linux will succeed for video/audio editors when some large corporation such as GOOGLE succeeds in creating a truly EASY-TO-USE and PROFESSIONAL *online* video/editing application.

Then, your solid, inexpensive LINUX box only needs to access the Web to access the video and audio editing features.

I believe this is already happening with office productivity applications.

The amazing success of Asus' EEE PC mini laptops is the evidence to which I would point.

1. Laptop Magazine review of Asus' EEE PC mini Linux laptop:

http://www.laptopmag.com/Review/Exclusive-First-Review-Asus-Eee-PC-701.htm

2. CNET's review of Asus' EEE PC mini Linux laptop:

http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/asus-eee-pc-4g/4505-3121_7-32466960.html

3. PC MAGAZINE's review of Asus' EEE PC mini Linux laptop:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2704,2209847,00.asp

I've been watching this story very carefully because I do believe Linux can penetrate mainstream markets.

Wal-Mart's $199 Linux desktop is another example of Linux success in mass markets.

When Linux can take the video/audio editing world by storm via some really good online applications, then it will be a real threat to more widely adopted operating systems.

So I partly agree with you about Linux, but it's just not yet "there."

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Habit, but more and more businesses are switching to the Mac as they realize the long term cost savings.

Macs -- in fact -- are the new low-cost option.

I spent less than $1,000 for an editing system that kicks far more expensive Microsoft Windows-based systems to the curb.



Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Okay Jerry you want to go a few more rounds? I'm concerned about you but if you feel as though you gotta go the distance no matter how beat up you are I'm up for it.

For $600 or $700 I can build a PC quad core system running at 3.2GHz that will absolutely smoke any Mac out there. Period. Add Sony Vegas or Movie Factory or a number of other NLE's and you have a no contest battle.

Mac's are more expensive because they control the market. No competition. We've been through this before Jerry give it a rest. This does give them an advantage in that there are no bargain basement crap systems out there like there are in the PC world. And these systems drive down the rating of PC's. Can you understand this?

Apple has been around since the beginning of the personal computer and despite all of their misinformation they still can't gain more than a small percentage of the marketplace. Why? Because you get more for your money with a PC. Period. There are advantages with the Mac that a small niche finds attractive. But truth be told this is mainly due to zealots that still think you can't run Photoshop on a PC or edit video. Mac had a chance to pound the PC back in the early '90's when Windows was really pretty lame but they couldn't even do it then. Now Windows has really gotten better by leaps and bounds and Apple is feeling the sting. Note the surrender and switch to Intel CPU's!!!! But I thought the PowerPC was so much better? More BS we were sold by Apple.

I already priced out the Mac and PC a few months ago to prove this to you. I really don't want to have to do it again. Plus as I said I can build one that just kills the Mac. Then you realize you have lost the hardware debate and spin into "but the Apple software is so much better and it's included!" Hmm. Microsoft Office available on both. Photoshop... same. And there are lots of good video editing apps at all ranges of price and features available for the PC

Jerry I'm happy the Mac is good for you! I really am. It's just to slow, unexpandable, and expensive for me. I'm fine with a PC and Windows XP thanks. Macs are great!!! Great!! Great! People love them. Just not for me thanks. I need MUCH better hardware for my hard earned dollar.

Go and take a look at my signature and spec out a comparable Mac system. Whoops! You can't even buy one at 3.2GHz.

Always fun Jerry. Always fun.

[Jerry Jones]

For $600 or $700 I can build a PC...

So, Mark, you're saying your time and your labor isn't a "cost," and -- therefore by extension -- is of no value, right?

Is that the point you're trying to make?

That your time and labor are of no value?

You see, I look at my time and my labor and I consider them to be of value.

That's where you make absolutely no sense to me in this comparison.

But let's take your point a bit further.

The other fallacy in your statement is that processor speed = value.

Well, my low-cost Mac mini features an Intel Core 2 Duo processor that is plenty fast enough!

And I'm running on a stable, top-shelf operating system Mac OS X while you're grinding away on either an outdated operating system or a newer operating system that is clearly not successful.

In addition, my Mac mini features an APPLE INTERMEDIATE CODEC, which you would have to spend $250 to achieve on a comparable Windows-based editing system (Cineform).

So -- bottom line -- go back and check your math because you just exposed a HUGE, gaping flaw in your logic.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

I already priced out the Mac and PC a few months ago to prove this to you. I really don't want to have to do it again. Plus as I said I can build one that just kills the Mac. Then you realize you have lost the hardware debate and spin into "but the Apple software is so much better and it's included!"

You're kidding right?

You got creamed in that discussion.

Creamed.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

My Mac OS X boots in just a fraction of the time it takes me to boot my Windows XP Athlon 64 notebook.

There's more than one reason for this.

Explained here:

http://www.apple.com/macmini/intel.html

Now I chose the low-cost mini because I realized I could still edit high definition video with it and not have to spend a ton.

But if I were still doing work that required daily pro output, I would get the this Mac...

http://www.apple.com/macpro/

...the world’s first 3.0GHz, 8-core Intel Xeon-based Mac Pro. Consider the bar officially raised.

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Jerry Jones]

Interesting side note.

The music in those current "Mac vs. PC" ads was composed by none other than Mark Mothersbaugh of Devo fame:

http://blogs.cnet.com/8300-13526_1-27-0.html?keyword=Mark+Mothersbaugh

http://www.clubdevo.com/

Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Jerry,

I priced out a Dell that compared to you Mac Mini and it blew it away in both price and features. You ran from that point and spun out on a tangent and whined "but the software the software!" I guess you bought into the Mac ads that told us we can't edit video, music, and photos on a PC. Strange as I've been doing it for over 10 years.

And my point on building a system is that if you are so inclined you can really, really smash the already pathetic Mac price/performance curve. You see you can't custom build a super fast, super inexpensive, super upgradeable Mac system like you can a PC. With literally THOUSANDS of hardware choices. My system was tailor built by me to my exact specifications and it is PERFECT. And completely upgradeable. In addition I enjoy the few hours it takes to assemble the systems that I generally use for 4 or 5 years with a CPU upgrade here and there of course

So your first point is demolished on two fronts:
1. PC's are less expensive for the hardware you receive than Macs. If you MUST have a Mac only application then go ahead and buy a Mac. But you can do the work with other apps if you want to. That being said I have no problem with people using and enjoying Macs. They are great boxes.
2. If you are inclined to build you can demolish the Mac price/performance curve with a PC.

Do you understand that? Okay game over on that point. Moving on....


Processor speed=value

Yes that's right, but not just processor speed but the overall speed of the platform and that is highly dependent on processor speed. Yes I like fast PC's. They allow me to get my work done faster. I wait on them less and can multitask more efficiently. You know compressing a video, browsing the web, editing another video..etc.. all at once. I can never have a computer that is fast enough. I like my C2D at 3.2GHz but am ready to go with a quad overclocked at 3.2GHz. Almost 4 TIMES FASTER THAN YOUR MAC MINI AND LESS EXPENSIVE!!! Again I must stress that is you are happy with you Mac Mini then I'm happy but you started this with the quote.

I spent less than $1,000 for an editing system that kicks far more expensive Microsoft Windows-based systems to the curb.

I'm responding to that sucker punch YOU THREW. Keep that in mind.

So yes I need a fast system. Much faster.


I'm grinding away on an "operating system that is clearly not successful?" That is ridiculous. First of all Windows XP has been amazingly successful for me. It has never given me problems and continues to serve me well on three computers plus my wifes. And not successful? You should rethink that. I think there are a FEW copies of Windows XP out there that are being used successfully. I think my wife's company runs about 100,000 copies alone. Yes it is a big company.

That statement really sounds out there Jerry.


Intermediate codec - You want to base the entire reason to buy a computer on the intermediary codec? If you had a REAL computer like mine you could edit AVCHD without an intermediary!!! And if you've got to have it you can buy it with the money you saved on not buying the Mac Mini(performance) and still have enough leftover for some other apps.


All those points decimated as usual. Bring it on!

To quote Spock, your torrential flow of illogic is astounding.

Thank you and good night.

[Jerry Jones]

I priced out a Dell that compared to you Mac Mini...

Let me put it to you this way, Mark.

I would rather use my Mac mini than any homemade Windows-based computer that you or I might assemble using parts, personal time, and personal labor.

That's a personal choice that -- for me -- renders your comparison utterly invalid.

During the past few years, I have assembled many Windows-based systems such as the ones you describe here at home.

I didn't think it was "fun" or "cool" to assemble such systems.

For me, computer assembly was boring, time-consuming, frustrating (when I would discover incompatibilities or defects in the various components) and -- frankly -- it wasn't worth it because, as I said earlier, my time and my labor are worth something to me.

Apparently, your time and your labor are of little or no consequence to you. That's your personal choice and that's fine; I respect that.

I prefer to focus my time and efforts on video/audio production and not on seemingly endless Windows-based computer assembly technical trivia.

That said, I stand by my assertion.

My Mac mini outperforms many Windows-based computer systems costing more money in the various local electronic stores.

I'm talking about Windows-based laptops in the $1,000 to $1,500 range in Circuit City, Best Buy, etc.

A couple of days before I decided to go ahead and get the mini instead of waiting for the rumored Macintosh ultra-portable, I found a $550 Toshiba laptop with 2GB of ram running Microsoft Windows Vista at my local Best Buy.

I gave the Toshiba laptop some consideration because that $550 sale price looked pretty decent... except the laptop lacked the performance of my mini because the laptop was running a slower AMD X2 processor.

Add that to the unbelievably slow performance of Microsoft Windows Vista and the choice was easy.

With the $599 Macintosh mini, I would get...

1. Faster Mac OS X Leopard;
2. More stable Mac OS X Leopard;
3. Software *included*

You seem to think software isn't a legitimate factor to consider.

I disagree.

Software is critical for me.

And with the Mac, one gets *full* versions of top-shelf programs.

With a Microsoft Windows computer, one gets half-baked crapware with no complete programs installed, which masks the unbelievably high cost of Windows-based PCs in retail stores.

In addition, Microsoft Windows Vista requires a minimum of 2GB of RAM, which adds even more cost.

So -- again -- I looked at that Toshiba laptop with its slower processor, its abundant crapware, its flaky Microsoft Windows operating system and then I considered the cost that I would be facing if I were to buy your (in my opinion over-priced) Sony Vegas software.

Let's compare:

1. Final Cut Express 4: $199
2. iMovie '08, iMovie HD '06, iDVD '08 (INCLUDED!)
3. Garage Band, iPhoto '08 (INCLUDED!)

...or...

...instead spend $584.95 on Vegas?

Look, even the way updates and patches are applied to Microsoft Windows-based video editing software makes me sick.

With APPLE, you get *everything* updated automatically.

You don't have to download "patch 1b.356.x28 release C" and then hope and pray you're installing it in the correct order with other patches.

I *hate* Windows-based software patching practices.

And you know what I'm talking about.

Don't plead ignorance on this one.

In the end, the unbelievable cost of your fantasy system failed for me.

1. Over-priced when you consider the headaches you get;
2. Much more expensive.

I stand by my assertion.

The Mac is the new low-cost option for budget-conscious video enthusiasts.



Jerry Jones

http://www.jonesgroup.net

[Hulk]

Again you lose so you spin off on a tangent. Here is the point. I can price a laptop that is more fully featured hardware-wise and faster than you Mac Mini. As for the software I'll get to that in a minute. First let me finish disecting your argument (for the 100th time). No building just go an buy it. I can find many options that are faster and less expensive than any Mac system.

Now read carefully. I said if you WANT to build a system you can even more fully DEMOLISH any Mac system iwith a home built PC on a cost vs. performance basis.

And I could build you a system for what you paid for that Mac Mini that would absolutely knock your socks off.

Apparently, your time and your labor are of little or no consequence to you. That's your personal choice and that's fine; I respect that.

You respect the fact that you have determined my time and labor are of no consequence to me. So you are basically saying that you respect the fact that I am a idiot since only an idiot wouldn't value his/her time. Nice.

I said I enjoy building my systems. Computer hardware is a hobby of mine. I enjoy reading about new products and such. Building systems is easy for me. No sweat or tears. I read forums and put together systems around proven components.

You say you like to run right? I say you're wasting your time out there sweating. Get it. One man's pain is another's pleasure.

Now to the software. I've used a friends Mac and all that free stuff is just as crappy as the free stuff you get with new PC's or better yet can download for free except better versions. FCE is pretty good but you have to pay $200 for it. And you can get Vegas a lot cheaper than the list price on the box you quote if you look around a bit. Plus there is Premiere, Pinnacle, Corel, etc... The idea is you have CHOICES with the PC that you do not have with the Mac.

And the only programs I used that had confusing updates were the Ulead applications. Vegas has the easiest updates ever. "A" then "B" and so on. You just download and install right over the old install and the program takes care of it. And I don't like automatic updates. Before anything gets installed I need to review it and make the decision thank you.

Listen my friend. Please consider stopping the bashing of hardware and software that other people use on a day-to-day basis. You have your opinions and that's fine but there is no need to constantly trash talk everything YOU don't like. There is a tactful way to make your opinions known. The next time you are going to type something like "Windows stinks that overblown...." consider "I didn't have a good Windows experience so..."

[Brian Ellis]

Jerry, Hulk

Why not spend some time video editing, instead of futile, repetitive, arguments?

[Hulk]

Jerry, Hulk

Why not spend some time video editing, instead of futile, repetitive, arguments?

Amen Brian. There is no denying that we agree 99% of the time but boy do we like to argue that 1%. And I'll be the first to admit that I think it's because we're both so darn stubborn!

[wkulecz]

I enjoy the point, counter-point, and Jerry is very good and coming up with interesting links. So keep up the debate!

--wally.

[Tjalfe]

just throwing a can of lighter fuel into the fire here

Mac versus Windows vulnerability stats for 2007

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=758