Answer To Doc Mordrid's 1080 Production Question

[xortam]

The Pioneer plasmas display 1080p24 at 72 Hz. They are one of the few displays that handle this correctly. Do yourself a favor and look at a 1080p24 BluRay disc playing to a Kuro and you may gain some respect for the format.

[Hulk]

The Pioneer plasmas display 1080p24 at 72 Hz. They are one of the few displays that handle this correctly. Do yourself a favor and look at a 1080p24 BluRay disc playing to a Kuro and you may gain some respect for the format.

Yes quite astonishing! I've seen it.

[Hulk]

My dSLR camera uses a Bayer patern sensor and it provides very high resolution. Pixel shifting and interpolation are legitimate solutions to engineering problems in designing cost effective equipment. I was just clarifying one of the numerous half-truths you've been leaking around these forums lately in your zealous quest to convert everyone to Apple and not allow them to make their own minds up regarding HD.

The last book on HD I co-authored was the #1 selling book at the NAB book store so it must have been quite entertaining to the professionals and semi-professionals that purchased it! Thanks for the compliment

[Apulo]

So those consumers who Apulo slams -- those who have purchased 720p high definition TVs -- are not going to miss very much.

The slamming is getting done by the resident forum troll, not me. To reply to your previous post, yes I stand by what I said, and yes I do think I know what I'm talking about, especially since your reply does a fine job ignoring the facts I put forward and just attacks the messenger not the message.

But hey, when I said I thought it would do no good, I admit I was wrong, because as you can see, Jerry is now at least admitting that 720p users are missing something, although he's still convinced it's is not very much

As for the 24p vs 60p argument, it's been already discussed, no need to get this thread closed on that account again.

[Apulo]

Interesting Crutchfield tidbit about 1080/24p:

These TVs don't actually display video at 24 frames per second because that would cause visible flicker and motion stutter. The TV converts the video to 60 frames per second or whatever its native display rate is.

That must be quite an old article (or a very behind author). Current 24p screens can display at 24p multiples. There's no such thing as a native display rate, only native resolution. Flatscreens have for a long time been able to do at least 50 and 60Hz. There is motion stutter at 24p, because that's what's present in the original picture itself (watch next time you go to the movies). It's preferable to the irregular stuttering that comes from the conversion of 24Hz to 60Hz.

There's no flicker however, because there's no screen refresh like with CRTs due to the technology.

[Brian Ellis]

The slamming is getting done by the resident forum troll, not me.

Now, who the heck could that be referring to? Ah, I've got it! Could it be someone

a) who thinks he knows everything about video, especially HD?

b) who can never admit to being wrong?

c) tries to defend his untenable position by hundreds of one-line paragraphs in the hopes that no one will read them and show him his errors?

d) considers everyone who disagrees with him a moron?

e) has recently decided that all Windows-based software is the nadir of information technology?

f) tries to sell us Apple technology by ramming it down our throats at every opportunity?

g) cannot admit that people ought to buy or rent DVDs?

Could it be?

[Jerry Jones]

Just because I don't...

1. worship at the Sony Blu-ray altar;

2. accept every bit of undocumented vomit burped up by Mark, Brian and Apulo;

3. prefer the rip-off Microsoft platform;

...some people on this forum behave as if they haven't had their nap and sling the contents of their diapers all over the forum.

Awwww.

Poor babies.

If I could reach across the Internet void and insert an infant pacifier into the mouths of Brian, Mark and Apulo, I would be happy to do so.

I guess they'll have to find something else to suck on, in the meantime.



Jerry

[Jerry Jones]

Pixel shifting and interpolation are legitimate solutions to engineering problems in designing cost effective equipment. I was just clarifying one of the numerous half-truths you've been leaking around these forums lately.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

I was the first to post the link back in the old thread about the native pixel matrix of consumer high definition camcorders often being far less than a true 1920 x 1080 pixels.

If anything, your late-to-the-game acknowledgement of that fact argues against your pushing 1080p TVs on everybody because pixel shifting means your favorite type of HDTV is -- in fact -- overkill for the display of consumer high definition video.

Thanks for making my point.



Jerry

[Jerry Jones]

g) cannot admit that people ought to buy or rent DVDs?

I never, ever made this statement.

All I have said relative to standard definition DVDs is that I own them, I play them, but I think they are the last physical, optical media format to be adopted by the masses.

In addition, they are growing increasingly obsolete over time.

They also take up a lot of space.

But I've always been of the opinion that people should be free to buy or rent them.

What about high definition DVDs?

I do believe they are a complete waste of time.

But I also believe each individual should be free to choose.

It's you, Brian, and Mark and Apulo who wish to shove Microsoft and Sony and Blu-ray discs down everybody's throats.

I'm simply providing information that suggests a reasonable alternative (Apple).



Jerry

[Jerry Jones]

The Pioneer plasmas display 1080p24 at 72 Hz. They are one of the few displays that handle this correctly. Do yourself a favor and look at a 1080p24 BluRay disc playing to a Kuro and you may gain some respect for the format.

I have no doubt that this looks good for source video without fast action.

But since we're talking about *moving pictures* and not *static* pictures, I assume we're all wanting to see motion captured accurately.

A 24 frames per second format is not ideal for capturing fast action.

If I want to see a high resolution still image, I'll just be content for now with high resolution digital photographs.

This goes to the heart of why I feel that -- for many if not *most* consumers -- 1080p HDTVs are overkill because the only format in wide use that can capture a full 60 frames per second is 720p.

Sure, 1080/60p cameras have arrived within the last few months, but it's going to be a long time before we see enough material in that format to justify 1080p HDTVs.

I suspect it's going to be years before there's enough content in that format to justify buying a 1080p HDTV.

And when there finally is enough content to justify such a purchase, the price will be far more reasonable.

This is why I just don't understand why Mark and Apulo feel the need to force 1080p HDTVs on consumers at this point in history.

It's also why I don't understand why they don't acknowledge that 1080p has largely been a marketing ploy to sell more expensive HDTVs.



Jerry

[Sasq]

Jerry, try very hard to make all of your replies in one post.

I understand your desire to catch up to Doc's post count, but this is not the forum to do so in, there are post whore threads in the lounge.

Failure to comply will result in me deleting your 2nd, 3rd, 4th ...nth post in a row.

[Jerry Jones]

Not a problem.

However, I'd like to discuss your management of this forum privately.

I would like to make some suggestions for improvement.

Jerry

[Sasq]

Doc is the moderator in here Jerry, I am however the man who pays the bills.
If you want different Moderation in this particular forum, I suggest you take that up with Doc.

I am a rabbid mac user, and your evangelising irritates me - and a few other mac users.

As for my management style, and any concerns you have. Sorry Jerry, you missed the clue bus on my warnings, missed the threads being closed as a warning, and only now are begining to take notice.
thus ends any discussion regarding *MY* management of this forum.

[Jerry Jones]

Well, then...

a. why do you suffer constipation when I share links to positive media reviews of Apple products while turning a blind eye to the RAMPANT, NEVER-ENDING evangelizing by Mark and Apulo on behalf of ANYTHING/EVERYTHING manufactured by Sony, Sony Creative Software (Vegas) and Sony 1080p monitors and Sony Blu-ray Disc products? Explain that one to me because I'm find it rather difficult to understand.

b. why do you publicly -- instead of *privately* -- threaten to delete and/or censor posts by me when others have also made multiple posts?

c. why do you not demand that people who oppose my points of view have the courtesy to post links to authoritative articles/FAQs/fact sheets that support what -- in lieu of such links -- are nothing but ***undocumented*** statements?

I would think that the purpose of a forum is to enlighten.

This forum has historically been better than many others on the Web.

Why?

Because there are many other forums on the Web where links to authoritative references and FACTS threaten the ***undocumented*** statements of opinion of the forum moderators who then proceed to censor anybody who dares to offer an alternative point of view.

All I'm saying is this:

If you write down your opinion, then back it up with a link to an article or a fact sheet, or a FAQ page or *something* that shows that you, the writer, are doing something more than just spouting an opinion.

You can criticize my viewpoints all you wish.

But one think you can't do.

You can't accuse me of failing to provide links to authoritative references, FAQ pages, fact sheets and product technical specification pages that BACK ME UP.

Put up or SHUT UP, SASQ.

AND THAT MEANS YOU.

Jerry

[Jerry Jones]

That must be quite an old article (or a very behind author). Current 24p screens can display at 24p multiples. There's no such thing as a native display rate, only native resolution. Flatscreens have for a long time been able to do at least 50 and 60Hz. There is motion stutter at 24p, because that's what's present in the original picture itself (watch next time you go to the movies). It's preferable to the irregular stuttering that comes from the conversion of 24Hz to 60Hz. There's no flicker however, because there's no screen refresh like with CRTs due to the technology.

http://hdtvexpert.com/pages/realitypf.htm

...you sure wouldn’t want to watch 24Hz video for any length of time; the flicker would drive you crazy after a few seconds...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/letters7.html

I BEG TO DISAGREE…

Q. Quote: (from 1080p Reality Check article, 7/05) “And you sure wouldn't want to watch 24Hz video for any length of time; the flicker would drive you crazy after a few seconds.” Response: Then I have no idea how I sit through those movies at the theater without driving me crazy. Movie theaters display their movies at 24fps and it doesn't drive anyone crazy after a few seconds...

A. When you watch a 35mm motion picture, each frame is exposed twice, not once. The frame is pulled into place by sprockets and gears until aligned with the aperture. Then, a dual-blade shutter passes in front of it two times. This results in an effective frame rate of 48 fps — not 24 fps — and persistence of vision means the flicker is minimized, which cuts down on eye fatigue. The added benefit is that the image is brighter, too. This has been standard motion picture projection technology for several decades now.

UPDATE JANUARY 2008:

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-5brG5gvntUS/learningcenter/home/tv_glossary.html

1080p TVs display video at 60 frames per second (60Hz), so this format is often referred to as 1080p60. The video on most high-definition discs (Blu-ray and HD DVD) is encoded at film's native rate of 24 frames per second, or 1080p24. For compatibility with most current 1080p TVs, high-definition players internally convert the 1080p24 video to 1080p60. By late 2007, many HDTVs included the ability to accept a 1080p24 signal directly. These TVs don't actually display video at 24 frames per second because that would cause visible flicker and motion stutter. The TV converts the video to 60 frames per second or whatever its native display rate is. The ideal situation would be to display 1080p24 at a multiple of 24 frames per second, like 72, 96, or 120 frames per second, to avoid the motion judder caused by 3-2 pulldown, which is required when converting 24-frames-per-second material to 60 frames per second. The digital display technologies (LCD, plasma, DLP, LCoS, etc.) that have replaced picture tubes are progressive scan by nature, displaying 60 video frames per second — often referred to as "60Hz." HDTVs with 120Hz refresh rate double the standard rate to 120 frames per second by inserting either additional video frames or black frames. Because each video frame appears for only half the normal amount of time, on-screen motion looks smoother and more fluid, with less smearing. It's especially noticeable viewing fast-action sports and video games. This feature is mostly found on flat-panel LCD TVs.

Jerry