New Canon video cameras

[Hulk]

I really think Canon is hitting the mark with the HF S100 and S10 video cameras. I have the HF100 and it's a pretty amazing little camera. Especially considering the $600 I paid for it.

If I could have three wishes for an improved version of this camera they would be as follows.
1. Larger sensor
2. Larger lens
3. Higher bitrate

You know what? The new cams have a larger 1/2.6" sensor, larger lens, and 24Mbps recording bitrate. Of course there are some other nice feature improvements but I think most people interested primarily with video quality will be looking for these important hardware changes.

- Mark

[dchip]

I still shoot SD and it's funny, but I was just sitting here looking at my broken (tape transport problem) Canon Optura PI and trying to decide whether to put it in the shop or get something to replace it and perhaps finally go HD. So you really like the HF100. How does it do in low to moderate light? I don't see an accessorty shoe to attach an external mic, so does the built-in mic do a good job? Thanks.

[Hulk]

I had an Optura Pi and believe it or not the tape transport broke on mine to!

There is no comparison between the Optura Pi and the HF100. The HF100 is better in every way. Of course it has much higher resolution and the video looks pretty amazing on a big HD TV. The low light performance is also very good, better than the Pi in my opinion. And it breaks down gracefully in low light. As the light becomes dimmer the camera slowly loses resolution and gets more noisy. But in an organic way, a way you would expect. Not big blotches of macroblocks or weird artifacts. The really low light stuff is still viewable and doesn't detract from the video itself.

I'm pretty sure there is one of those small Canon accessory mounts on it like the Pi has. I had that damn DM50 mic for the Pi and was never impressed with it. For serious audio work I use the 1/8" in audio jack but the onboard mic is quite good, especially since there is no tape transport noise

My advice is to dump the Pi. Keep it to digitize SD video or something. You can get the HF100 for less than $600 on Amazon. Just make sure you have the computer and software to edit the AVCHD. I use Sony Vegas Pro 8 with a Core2 Duo rig overclocked to 3.2GHz. I edit the native files no problem. I also edit them on my 2GHz core 2 duo notebook with Vegas no problem. No proxy files, no Cineform, no BS, just pop in the SDHC card, copy over the files and edit.

Anyway my experience with the HF100 has been excellent so far. Plus with a new baby there are so many shots I would have missed waiting for tape to spool up or rewinding or popping in a tape. I turn on the HF100 and literally 5 seconds later I'm recording. We keep in on the kitchen counter actuallly.

And finally the clips get numbered and dates just like a digital still camera. It makes editing so much easier.

I really love the camera and the workflow of the SDHC card. And no more tape transport to worry about breaking. No more tape to buy and no tape dropouts.

I don't have a BD burner yet but I'm going to buy one and make my BD's using Sony DVDA. It's easy enough for now to downrez to standard DVDs if I need to share outside my house but most of the time we watch the video on my HTPC.

- Mark

[dchip]

The reason this HF100 reminds me of the original Optura, Optura Pi and the original Elura is the RGB color filter and OPTICAL image stabilizer in what is basically a consumer package. Canon has an interesting pattern. If it holds true, the Optical stabilization will turn into a digital one as the design "evolves."

You are right, though. As appealing as the Optura Pi is, getting it fixed would be silly. Besides, the same thing is likely to go wrong down the road. Tape is dead. Besides, if I still need to shoot tape and SD, I still have my trusty Canon Elura which has never broken down in the 8 years it's been with me. I did prefer the form factor of the Optura Pi, though.

[dchip]

Just make sure you have the computer and software to edit the AVCHD. I use Sony Vegas Pro 8 with a Core2 Duo rig overclocked to 3.2GHz. I edit the native files no problem. I also edit them on my 2GHz core 2 duo notebook with Vegas no problem. No proxy files, no Cineform, no BS, just pop in the SDHC card, copy over the files and edit.

I don't, so the cart would be out in front of the horse for a bit but I will build a new computer this spring. Right now, the technical side of what to buy in computers makes my head hurt. I used to go to mwave or one of the sites and pick out a good Asus board and some memory and I was off and running. Now, there is a dizzying array of stuff. That's what I get for keeping the same system for so many years. I'm not even sure I can use the hard drives I have and I looked a lot of mb's that don't even have an AGP slot for my Millenium G550. All the PCI slots look different or are gone. Trying to configure something is like being a stranger in a foreign land.

Right now I still have XP Pro SP2, Pentium 2.4Ghz, 1GB regular RAM. Asus P4T-E MB, with three hard drives, 2 attached to Promise ATA-133 PCI controller. System has served me well and been very stable for SD video. I think I have Vegas 8 upgrade waiting on my Sony Vegas folder on their site. I will have to check. Hulk, you might have me easing into HD here.

[dchip]

Core2 Duo rig overclocked to 3.2GHz

You doing any special cooling for this?

[Hulk]

I have the "Big Typhoon" cooler in there. Nothing fancy just a better, bigger heatsink than stock. You can see the specs of my rig in my sig. I built this system 2-1/2 years ago and honestly it has been flawless. Absolutely the best system I've ever built or bought. And I have built many and bought from Dell and Gateway, which also put together pretty decent (but limited for expansion and overclocking) systems.

In my opinion the state of system building now is much better than say 10 years ago. Everything is packed and set up for do it yourselfers. You are right to go with Asus I find them a little more expensive but very stable. All the components I picked are a little more expensive than the bargain basement stuff but it has all added up to a rock solid build for as I said over two years.

All I had to do was up my CPUcore voltage in the BIOS to 1.375 and this rig was rock solid. I will either upgrade the CPU to a Quad Core2Duo or pull the mobo/RAM and go with an i7 system when I feel I need more processing power. Since all of my other components are top notch they can stay. Everything just works.

If I were to build from scratch today I would go to Anandtech.com and find their recommendation for an inexpensive core i7 build. I'd go with the Asus P6T I think and the 920 CPU and probably overclock it mildly to 3.3 or so. Nothing crazy like the 4GHz lots of guys are pushing. I'm cheap I just want a little faster than what Intel normally sells for $1000!

You know that today is the last day for the 35% off all Sony software right? So if you are going to upgrade to Vegas 8 you might want to consider it. On the other hand NAB is right around the corner and they might come out with version 9.

Here is my advice on the system building for video editing with Vegas right now. If you are going full 64 bit, OS and Vegas then build Core i7. It really cranks with Vegas 8.1 64bit. But if you are going to stay 32 bit for a while then just build with a good Core2Duo Quad. You'll save some memory (mainly on memory and mobo actually) and not lose much performance. We've done a lot of testing over on the Sony boards and the i7 really only pulls away from Core2Duo with 64bit Vegas.

And yes, the optical stabilization is great and I think Canon is staying with it in the HF series since the new one in my first post here also have the optical stabilization.

- Mark

[dchip]

I never went any further than Vegas 6 and even that I purchased NIB on ebay dirt cheap. I did register with Sony so Sony has all my serial #'s and keeps me in the loop on upgrades and stuff like that 35%.

Right now I have something in my sony upgrade basket there called "Upgrade to Vegas Pro from Vegas" Price: FROM $234.95. I think that is Vegas 6 to Vegas 7, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I might check this evening to see what happens if I click buy on that. Perhaps it will take me to 8 with 35% off. "FROM" is the key word in that pricing.

Thanks for the computer building advice. How do you go about getting all the stuff you have on older drives off and onto the newer type drives? Are the screaming new systems backward compatible with older hard drives or is there some kind of adapter. Is NTFS still the standard file structure on the fancy new drives? I keep a huge folder on one of my hard drives with every executable and compressed install file for every program I have. It would be crucial to get that folder over onto the new system so I can reinstall everything. Has onboard audio on mb's gotten to the point that it is just as good as buying a seperate card?

Perhaps I will have a new computer built in time for a nice price drop on the upcoming Canon HF S10 that you mentioned yesterday. I have checked that one out and it is KILLING me. What a package! Of course it is basically a big awesome lens with a CMOS a card recorder/reader and an LCD, but who cares. It's still the most amazingly powerful small HD package I have seen. This reminds me of when I started dogging the Canon Elura back in 2000. Hulk, thanks to you, the hunt is on. There will be a Canon HF S10 in my hands sometime before summer. Yes, you killed the Optura Pi.

With the economy the way it is, I don't see that $1299 price tag on the HF S10 holding up for more than a few months. Then let the price competition begin. The camera you have is like $529 at B&H right now. I only wish you hadn't mentioned the bigger optics on the HF S10. Like a laser beam, I zeroed right in on it from that moment forth. Now it's HF S10, or nothing. I'll never get away from Canon. They just keep innovating.

It is good to see the optical stabilizer being continued as the barrel type HF series grows. Plus the RGB color filter. From what I have read that HF S10 lens is a light-grabbing sonofagun. My new obsession.

[dchip]

Maybe Sony will return to releasing things as solid as the old Sonic Foundry Vegas 3 and 4. I hope if 9 comes out that it will not carryover bugs from 8. Not that I have used 8 but I have heard about it. By the way, I just checked and there is a big thread over there about 9. People who never even got 8 running cleanly are getting their credit cards ready. In all fairness, a lot of them are perfectly happy with 8 and never had a single glitch.

[Hulk]

I'm pretty sure that upgrade to Vegas Pro will be to 8 for two reasons. Those upgrade from a previous version have always been to the latest version. And second, v8 is the first one to have the "Pro" name on it. That being said I only upgrade when I have to. For example I'm still using SoundForge version 6 and they are at v9 now. 6 does all I need it to and is stable so there is no reason to upgrade.

V8 on the other hand does AVCHD and always includes a bunch of cool new features. I'm quite happy with V8 but am hoping for SmartRendering of AVCHD with V9. It SmartRenders HDV now but now AVCHD.

But the new Canon cams with 24Mbps recording rate even kind of negate SmartRender as with that nice "bit overhead" I'd just recompress it all down to 12-14Mbps VBR 2-pass of course and be done with it.

And yes. Bigger lens, bigger sensor. That is a real upgrade. And I agree with you the new cam prices will come down by summer. I'll probaby upgrade when it gets to around $700.

As for transferrring the files from your old drive. I believe you are referring to going from Fat32 or NFTS or some other problem. Not a problem in many years for me. My new rig is NFTS and so was my old one. I move all my data to the secondary drive and plug that drive into the new system. viola it's all there. Worst case you could move it to a USB drive in chunks if you had to but it won't be a problem. Just move the drive to the new system and then move the data as you like.

No talk of 9 from offical Sony sources. We're just guessing. I have a friend I could push for info and try to get hints but I don't like doing that. Sony is VERY tight lipped about unreleased products. If they don't release V9 I would expect a V8 update. Either way would be good. Nothing is good too because I am fine with V8. Like I said I'm editing just fine natively. Not as fast as with DV of course but still pretty well.

Let's put it this way my current system edits AVCHD 1080i about as well as I'd say about a P4 2.0 edits 480i DV. Yes we took a step back editing-wise with the higher overhead AVCHD compression and higher resolution 1080i but it is still quite editable with a Core2Duo. Jeez you could buy the one that runs stock at 3.0GHz for very little and be set.

Also some guys on the Sony forum are saying there is a bug with Quad core rendering and AVCHD with Vegas Pro 8. I have a dual core and am experiencing no issues. I'm also fine with my editing and rendering speed so I'm going to stay dual until I hear people say this issue does not exist anymore. The workaround is to convert files to Cineform (available within V8). I guess if I really wanted to have the best preview speed I could get a quad and transfrom files to Cineform but I'm too lazy for all that. Maybe if I have a really complex project or a client standing over my shoulder and I need to show off how I can realtime preview HD. But I don't do much work for hire anymore.

Hey can you believe it a "video editing" discussion going on in here! It's been a long time.

- Mark

[dchip]

Shucks, I can remember when metioning Vegas anything in here would draw fire. And as for the hardware discussion in this thread. Ha! One of the Matrox hardware guys would show up and say there is more to this site than the Desktop Video board. I imagine that could still happen.

[dchip]

You're right. That would be an upgrade to 8. Sony doesn't even sell 7 anymore. I can also pick up 8 other ways for less money, but perhaps not with all the goodies like DVDA, etc. I just need to decide what I'm going to do with video editing. It is not an income producer any more and is true hobby now. Still it would be nice to take the step up to HD. Perhaps working with HD in post would fire me up again about doing some actual money-making work with my cameras. Still, it's a game that moves so fast and leaves you behind (technology-wise) so quickly that I wonder if it's worth it to pursue it again.

[dchip]

But the new Canon cams with 24Mbps recording rate even kind of negate SmartRender as with that nice "bit overhead" I'd just recompress it all down to 12-14Mbps VBR 2-pass of course and be done with it.

What are you using these days for the compression? I still use the very tweakable Mainconcept standalone which is the "old" mpeg2 encoder. I imagine something else is out there now to work with HD. Perhaps some type of hardware encoder or a high-dollar version of Cinema Craft or something like that.

[Hulk]

I use the MainConcept compresser in Vegas for compression SD to DVD. Usually two-pass with a bitrate of 5500 does it.

For HD Vegas has either the MainConcept AVCHD compressor or the Sony AVC. I actually think the MainConcept is a bit better at equal bitrates but I haven't found a compliant setting for making BD's that DVDA will accept. There are on the other hand some BD templates when using the Sony AVC compressor but the only bitrates that seem to produce BD compliant files are 10Mbps and 16Mbps. Unfortunately it's not two-pass. The thing is 10Mbps is a little low for 1080i and 16Mbps a little high. For most video. I think 12-14Mbps using two-pass would do it for most 1080i video. The MC does a great job as I said above but I'm having trouble finding compliant BD settings. This is one of the things that we're on Sony about for the next build. More and better BD AVCHD encoding settings. It's not a huge deal I suppose because BD's are so huge that you can just go with 16Mbps and be done with it.

I remember when I'll I would use was TMPGEnc frame served from MSPro. Jeez how things have changed. Compressing for DVD is like childs play now. Just about any NLE can do a good job of it. By good job I mean no artifacts and no color shifting.

I have found over the years that "garbage in garbage out" is still the rule. Good clean video will compress beautifully. Bad will will compress badly.

I think one of the reasons that this forum isn't seeing much action is because most NLE's are so darn good. And the workflow today for SD is pretty worked out and solid. AVCHD is actuallly pretty far along the "easy" curve as well as more and more NLE's are accepting it. I am so glad to be done with capturing tapes. Or loading projects back to tape for archiving purposes. Blah. I remember doing a project for a local school district and it was pure hell. Editing video from different cameras, some analog, some DV. Color correcting. Mixing Huffyuv and DV on the timeline. There were lots of issues in the NLE and the capture utilities. Glad those days are behind us. I spend so little time on the details now and so much more just shooting and getting out a final product.

- Mark

[dchip]

You know, I've got a little program from Pegasys called TMPGEnc DVD Author that, minus a lot of bells and whistles and fancy menu templates and stuff, produces bulletproof DVD's. I have burned hundreds with it and they all have perfect playability. It even does AC3 audio if needed. It also make ISO's of DVD projects. I have always liked TMPGEnc stuff.

You are right about the old days. I've grown to hate the mechanized whirring of tapes loading and unloading, stopping and starting and forward and rewind. Not to mention trying to get captured what you actually wanted to capture.

I was cleaning out a drawer recently and found a VCD I made years ago and cleaned it up and sure enough it still plays. When I recall what went into making it, though, I just shake my head. Of course since I still use SD, I am still wasting a lot of time nursing equipment and hooking up a lot of junk. The simplest thing I have hooked up now is an old vcr into Canopus ADVC100 into Vegas6 to capture some tv programs realtime. The old VCR has a rock solid tuner and looks great in Vegas. Simple and easy. I haven't done it in months, but the mere thought of previewing Vegas on an external monitor makes me sick. Something always didn't want to cooperate. That and saving back to tape.

That HFS10 looks like it was made for my Sennheiser mke300 boom mic. The accessory shoe is far enough back on the camera that the mic can't get in the picture on panned shots, which was a constant problem on Optura Pi. Man I can't wait.

So what advantages does flash storage of HD give you for capturing scenes or can you easily mark what you want to capture and then just capture it? How do you jump to a particular point on the card? Is there a preview of some kind? Is the previewing strenuous on the computer hardware?