Ulead DVD Workshop 2 Subtitles Problem

[Debbie]

After all these years I have been trying to use the subtitle feature on UDW2.
I have converted a srt file to UDW2 complayent txt in Subtitle Workshop. Both files have identical timing and the srt file works fine in any player that supports subs.
My problem is that when the txt file is imported in UDW2, the subs start off in sync but gradualy appear behind time untill at the end of the movie they are about 5 seconds behind. This is happening allways not just on a particulat movie. See attachment

[Brian Ellis]

Can't really help you.

I've never noticed this problem but I don't think I've ever used it for a >30 min project and I put in the subtitles directly in WS2.

Does it do the same after rendering?

AH! May have it! WS2 does not work with times but with frame numbers. As you are using NTSC, could it be that your video is working at 29.97 fps and the s/t file at 30 fps (or vice versa)? I think this would give a ~0.1% slip in timing which would be ~4.86 seconds in 81 minutes.

Thank God for PAL,which does not have drop frames!!!!

[Debbie]

Thanks Brian, It'a nice to to heir from you. This forum is not like the good old times any more. Yes the movie I'm working on is NTSC and I have converted the subs file in time mode not frames. I'll give your theory a try and let you know.
Cheers mate.

[Debbie]

No luck, Brian. I'll just have to forget UDW2. I'll finish the job with ConvertX. If you happen to think of a solution I'll be obliged if you will advice.

[Brian Ellis]

Can't Subtitle Workshop work at 29.97 fps?

[Debbie]

Brian, I think that I have spoted the problem. I have now tested a movie with an original frame rate of 25 fps with subs at the same frame rate and it works fine from begining to end.

The movie I had before had an original frame rate of 23,976 fps, which has been converted to standard NTSC. It is now clear that UDW2 will only work well on a standard frame rate PAL or NTSC with a subs file of a corisponding frame rate.
It is puzzling how the same movie played in sync on software players

So my question is: How can I convert a movie with a frame rate of 23,976 fps + a sutitles file of the same frame rate to what UDW2 will be happy with ?

[Brian Ellis]

Sorry, you are losing me off now. I know nothing about framerate converters. Your conversion ratio is theoretically 1.25:1 and I would imagine that many NLEs would work it by duplicating a frame every fourth frame. This would not be a true software conversion which could work only by mathematically decomposing four frames and recomposing them into 5 frames, which would be a long process. Even worse, I think this should be done on uncompressed video (possibly on lossless compressed) and not on lossy video, such as MPEGx with I, P and B frames. In addition, there may be colour scaling problems, as the DVD spec calls for 4.2.0 480i sampling whereas I imagine your original may be 4.2.2 HDp sampling. Frankly, I shudder at the thought of converting original video to DVD 25i or 29.97i if it is not at the same framerate. As DVD has no firmly defined specs (like MPEG-2 or DV) this may be a can of worms.

Ideally, to make SD DVDs, I would want footage shot in 29.97 (NTSC) or 25 (PAL) fps, obviating the need for framerate conversion. I haven't understood this "film look" mania of 24 fps as it means reducing the picture quality for standard video work. IOW, video is not film and never will be.

I believe there are some DVD players which accept DVDs burnt at 24.976 fps (assuming the TV does as well). All BluRay equipment and HDMI TVs will accept it, as well as the "standard" DVD formats. I don't have BluRay but my TV automatically converts all 720x576 25i fps signals to 1024x720 25p remarkably well. The only difficulty I've noticed is on very narrow (1-3 pixel wide) objects at an oblique angle (think violin strings), which "staircase". Could BR be the way to go for you at slow framerates to avoid conversions?

I have had one idea, which I don't guarantee will work but may do so. Do your editing in SD 720x480 29.97 fps after converting your raw footage. When you re-render, it may correct the framerate. Experimentally, to see whether this is so, take your current long converted file into MSP, Magix, or any other SD NLE as standard NTSC and create a new file from it.

The opposite is suggested here:

Any editing application which supports NTSC video can be used to edit footage employing the 3:2 pulldown scheme. It can be captured as a standard 60i file and edited like footage from any other camera, while still retaining its 24p aesthetic. There can be issues when editing the footage as 60i, however, including choppiness in short transitions or fades, and also a mismatch in the motion characteristics of the footage and any graphics which may be added to it, such as text or logos. So, while 24p footage can be edited as 60i, it is usually better to edit the footage on a 24p timeline with the pulldown removed.

Most current prosumer-level editing applications which edit native 24p can remove the 3:2 pulldown for editing in native 24p, although some cannot. However, this is not ideal; the removal of the 3:2 pulldown involves reconstruction of every fourth frame from two different field groups, which can cause a generational loss and some banding problems if the application doesn't interpret the footage properly. Therefore, using the 3:2 pulldown scheme is not ideal when planning to edit on a 24p timeline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#Con....2Ffield_rates

This suggests adding the subtitles at 23.976 and not 29.97, which I doubt WS2 can do.

I see that simple conversion to 29.97i will mix the fields between frames to add the extra one.

I think I've been havering long enough on a subject I know nothing about!

[Debbie]

Thanks for taking the time to help. I should perhaps stick to standard frame rates when using DW2. and use ConvertX for non standard frame rates when subs are required. ConverX takes any frame rate provideing it matches that of the movie.

Cheers

[Debbie]

Problem compleatly solved.