Anyone has experience with HDFury?

[VJ]

Hello,

My trusty old projector (14 year old epson) is on the frits: it sometimes goes in to some alarm mode. So far it recovers every time, but at one point it will fail. And if not that, it is near the end of its second lamp-life, so given the other problem there is little point in replacing the lamp. Any new projector would have a higher HDMI standard, which means I would have change some things in order to connect it all as I have an even older amplifier (HDMI v1.2).

It is quite a high end amplifier, so rather than replacing that one I though of adding a HDFury VRRoom ( https://hdfury.com/product/8k-vrroom-40gbps/ ) in the mix. It has a dedicated audio output and would allow me to keep using the amplifier with a HDMI audio input while having a beter HDMI standard (4K, hdr, ...) for the projector. It is a rather expensive device, but still cheaper than also replacing the amplifier. I've contacted their support to learn more and it is clear that the device would suit my purpose.

Does anyone have experience with HDFury?

Jörg

[VJ]

Just to follow up on this...

I'm looking for a replacement projector, the current one is acting up more frequently... bu it seems that the market for projectors is completely messed up.

There is an abundance of relatively cheap portable "lifestyle" projectors, but they are too weak for the size of screen I have and want: my current projector has 1600 lumens and it is on the darker side (not very suitable when it is bright outside). No way a "lifestyle" projector with 500 lumens will be usable, and that is ignoring the issues with positioning it.

Then there is a whole range of DLP projectors in various prices - this includes the lifestyle projectors - but the rainbow effect associated with them really bothers me - I haven't seen a DLP which does not exhibit it - I have not yet seen tri-laser DLP projectors which should mitigate the problem more but it still bothers some people. As a result, if I'm looking only at non-DLP projectors to be on the safe side, it only leaves sony/jvc with lcos/d-ila and Epson with their 3LCD projectors. Due to their technology the sony/jvc's are always expensive and big: the JVC NP5 is considered cheap and small and it is over 5000 eur and comes in at 20 kg. Apart from the cost, the weight is an issue as my projector is ceiling mounted.

To make matters worse: as of next year, the EU forbids sales of projectors with lamps and replacement lamps so I do not want to get a projector with a lamp - this also rules out virtually and second hand as any older projector is lamp-based. Epson is finally coming out with a new range of laser-based projectors (they are finally replacing 5 year old models), but the first announcements seem to indicate they are moving towards more high-end: the cheapest one they announced so far costs an estimated $8000.... OUCH! The other have higher specifications and double respectively triple this.
The only cheaper options at the moment are Epson's current laser-powered ultra short throw projectors (still around 2500 EUR), but then I may have a compatibility problem with the projection screen as I have a matte roll down screen, not an ALR screen optimized for ultra short throw. As I gather, it should work - even if not optimal it probably would still be an upgrade, but I'd have to reposition the projector-mount (fix the lowered ceiling where it sticks through now) and change cabling. In addition, the cheaper of these projectors do not support ceiling mounts...

Changing for a TV is not an option: the room is completely decorated without provisions for a TV: the projector is suspended above the couch, the screen rolls down in front of the window.

Not sure what I'm asking... but just need to rant about it... :-)

[UtwigMU]

Don't be bothered about EU, you will still be able to ebay lamps. One Russian guy told me how people had VCRs in Soviet union where streets were patrolled by KGB for flickering light from windows past the end of official state TV broadcast. If Soviet citizens could get VCRs during communism and people in North Korea have DVD players, so will we be able to get lamps. We're not Soviet tier yet but we are moving in that direction. The EU bureaucracy is far removed from citizens and no longer has their best interest as a main priority. Lamps will be sold declared as electrical heating devices and you live next to Belarus anyway so no problem for lamps there.

Tough situation. Long ago I had a dream projector setup in mind. Now I'm renting the apartment and maybe moving soon, so I cannot ceiling mount.

I suggest you try to rent a few projectors for a weekend and see. I rented DLP for some event once and color fringing was noticeable although it's a sacrifice for cinema experience. Epson is Epson-Seiko corporation. The Seiko part is moving towards high-end with Grand Seiko and Credor watches for 5 figures.

8k is overkill, for 8k you can redecorate entire room.

Rollable OLED is also coming so you might wait for that or some solution that raises or opens from the wall.

Solve projector first as this is the bottleneck in your setup, then figure out the amp.

[VJ]

Don't be bothered about EU, you will still be able to ebay lamps. One Russian guy told me how people had VCRs in Soviet union where streets were patrolled by KGB for flickering light from windows past the end of official state TV broadcast. If Soviet citizens could get VCRs during communism and people in North Korea have DVD players, so will we be able to get lamps. We're not Soviet tier yet but we are moving in that direction. The EU bureaucracy is far removed from citizens and no longer has their best interest as a main priority. Lamps will be sold declared as electrical heating devices and you live next to Belarus anyway so no problem for lamps there.

I am bothered by it as projectors are not such a mainstream product as e.g. VCRs, and you need the correct lamp that fits (there are many issues with fake lamps, overheating and so, and that would only get worse). The main reason for EU banning the lamps is the fact that they contain mercury, and as a result of the EU regulation, manufacturers are using laser and led in the new models. Given that a projector lasts long (my current one is 14 years now - it is nearing the end on its second lamp), it makes sense to not get one with a lamp. Just try to find a lightbulb nowadays, and then imagine that you need a very specific one.

I suggest you try to rent a few projectors for a weekend and see. I rented DLP for some event once and color fringing was noticeable although it's a sacrifice for cinema experience.

But it does not have to be a sacrifice: with a non-DLP projector, the rainbow effect does not occur (it is not colour fringing: colour fringing is a lens artefact, the rainbow effect is a result of the sequential projection of the colours, present in all single-dlp projectors but said to be less prominent in laser-based ones). Problem is that the DLP projectors went full mainstream as it is easier to get better blacks, pushing the others into a niche. A second problem is that very few of the current projectors offer lens shift (which allows you to optically shift the image, maintaining the full resolution even if the projector and screen are not positioned ideally), but rather rely on keystone correction which lowers quality as it digitally compensates and transforms the projected image. And then of course there is the lack of zoom, which implies that to get a specific size of image, you need an exact distance. All functionalities that are quite important for fixed installations.With the current fashion of "lifestyle" projectors, higher lumen values also got lost (why would I care about a 500 lumen projector if my current one has 1900 lumen).

8k is overkill, for 8k you can redecorate entire room.

I'm not even stubborn on true 4K (which is getting there in DLP, but is more of an issue in LCD). Most people forget that any streamed 4K video will be compressed to the point that the 4K quality benefit is lost anyway. I currently have full hd on a 100", and a blue-ray looks ridiculously sharp. Resolution wise, it is good enough for me. More brightness and better black levels are more important than resolution (so I expect a new projector to be better).

Rollable OLED is also coming so you might wait for that or some solution that raises or opens from the wall.

It will take a while for that to become affordable.

Solve projector first as this is the bottleneck in your setup, then figure out the amp.

I know, but I want to get the full plan of my options, not to get stuck later.

For now I've found one projector that could be suitable - I just have to check if its minimum throw distance is not too long for my setup. It is an Epson laser projector (full 4K resolution through pixel shifting, 2500 lumen) that is a drop-in replacement for my current one. More expensive than I was hoping to spend, but as it is a drop-in replacement it requires no other costs (no change of screen or mount). In the past this model has seen promotions that make its cost acceptable for me, so I'm now monitoring its prices. Rumours of insiders seem to indicate that this projector is not yet being replaced by Epson (the model is two years old). Some are saying it constitutes the current entry-level (used to be the top-tier!). The models positioned below it are over 5 years old lamp based models that are well behind on their refresh cycle. Question is now if Epson will still replace those or will stick to the higher end (the competition of DLP projectors in the lower end is tough, esp. if people apparently don't care about the rainbow effect or other downsides).

As for the amplifier, the easiest/cheapest solution will be to use the analog multi-channel input on the amplifier: I can connect the analog 5.1 audio output of the computer to the amplifier (luckily it has a 7.1 analog input) and send audio that way (projector directly connected to computer). It however means the decoding happens in the computer and some amplifier functionality is bypassed. Another zero-cost alternative is to connect via optical cable, but that limits the audio formats - not too much of an issue though. As a last option, I can try to see what the possibilities are for sending audio to another hdmi port, but for that I need to be able to reproduce the setup, so I can only investigate the possibilities of that when the setup is complete. The HDFury route would be the perfect route, but seeing as the projector will stretch the budget, the addition of a HDFury has become less of a priority, so I'd forego it for now.

[UtwigMU]

I'm not even stubborn on true 4K (which is getting there in DLP, but is more of an issue in LCD). Most people forget that any streamed 4K video will be compressed to the point that the 4K quality benefit is lost anyway. I currently have full hd on a 100", and a blue-ray looks ridiculously sharp. Resolution wise, it is good enough for me. More brightness and better black levels are more important than resolution (so I expect a new projector to be better).

I meant 5-8k EUR for projector is overkill, you can redecorate room.

[VJ]

Sorry... wrong interpretation of 8K. :-)
I fully agree that it is overkill... It is just amazing to see that Epson's current laser-based home projectors (officially priced at $4000 and $5000, came out 2 years ago) used to be their top tier for home use, and suddenly out of nowhere they announce home cinema projectors of $8000, $16000 and $32000 (for the latter two this is the price *without* a lens, which adds a couple of thousands) with ridiculous brightness and contrast. I'm more surprised the market for projectors the price of cars is that big: they are joining Sony, JVC, Barco, Christie and some others.
Epson's current mid-end on the other hand, which had projectors below $1500, hasn't seem a refresh in 5 years. So either they will just abandon that market, or something will still have to come: they have to move to laser or led if they want to keep catering to this market in Europe.

Rumours are that the current top-tier models will not disappear quickly, so either they will become the low-end (if nothing new comes out, or the mid-end if something cheaper appears). But there is not that much space for a lower end: they can remove the motorized aspects for zoom, lens-shift and focus, but anything that affects image quality should still be better than the models it replaces and compare to the competition in the price range. That does not leave much wiggle-room: competition tends not to have lens-shift or even zoom, so those would be good to keep. But as the competition uses DLP, it has the benefit of easier true 4K and better black levels. The market does not seem to care much about the rainbow effect.

At the moment I'm looking at the cheaper of those previous top-tier models, especially as streetprice is lower and promotions can have a further impact. It costs more than I anticipated, but not much more than a mid-tier combined with a hdfury, and still cheaper than a non-dlp short-throw combined with a new screen - which I also was looking at. As the rumour is the model won't disappear fast, I decided to wait until a promotion (often in September), unless news of other models surfaces before that.

[UtwigMU]

Also check out prices in Japan. Due to Yen being so low prices are much cheaper compared to Europe. For some watches watch in Japan + air ticket is cheaper than same watch in Europe. Same goes for cameras and lenses. There are sites that do import or check Japanese sellers on E-bay.

[VJ]

Also check out prices in Japan.

I checked prices on German Ebay... Interesting dilemma... Japanese resellers only offer the higher of the two model, which has slightly higher brightness and contrast (a lot more on paper, not so much difference in real life tests) and some additional features I for sure do not need (e.g. support for an anamorphic lens). It retails here for around 1000 eur more than the lower one, but the Japanese resellers have it at 200 eur less than the lower model. The lower model has been available in Europe at around 500 eur below that... So I am waiting for such a promotion again...

Still monitoring prices... Good to know the alternative - if there would be no promotion and I decide to buy it I could get the higher model.
(currently trying to find out how Epson's warranty works, some companies restrict warranty to products sold in the region)

EDIT: too good to be true... I calculated the import fees and taxes. It still makes the more expensive model around 500 eur cheaper than it is here, but it is no longer competitive with the cheaper model as it is 500 eur more expensive. Would be an option if I were to go for the higher model, but I don't want to spend that much more. I'm already at 2.5 times what I was expecting to spend.

[VJ]

Well, the current projector is more and more acting up... Both yesterday and the day before it needed three attempts: the first two it went into alarm mode.

It seems like the projector I'm looking at had promotions last year in September, so I'm hoping this will be the case again...

Meanwhile, I'm partly redoing the htpc/amp/projector installation: the socketlist I used started failing (it has master-slave functionality, which cut power to a usb hub and other external devices when the pc was off). It started switching on/off randomly, and cannot be fixed. But it just happens that I managed to buy a utp/rs232/ir/relay control box for a ridiculously cheap price and am integrating it: it has 4 relay switches, which gives me direct control over 4 sockets (nothing that cannot be done with an arduino, network interface and some relays, but the box was actually cheaper than that and offers more functions and requires no programming).
I did realize that if/when I get a new projector, I may have to add a new hdmi cable: the current one is 12 years old and probably won't support the high bit-rate needed for 4k... It will be a bit of a mess to pull a cable in the lowered ceiling... but the I should probably also add network and perhaps some spare cable.

[UtwigMU]

New apartment woes thread soon .

[VJ]

No, nothing like that!

[VJ]

Sony just announced their new home cinema projectors! Entry level price of their current projector-range is approx. $5700, announced price for the new entry-level is around $16000.
What the hell is happening with this market?
It is flooded with affordable but limited DLP projectors, but anything non-dlp gets priced to insane levels.

[UtwigMU]

The TVs have gotten big to the point that places which used to use projectors are replacing them with TVs. 85" Samsung TV for $1000. One computer course place here replaced all their projectors with TVs / large monitors.

So the mid range projector market is disappearing and only the very large specialized places like lecture halls who need 3m and larger are buying them. Smaller runs, higher R&D costs.

[VJ]

Yes... Well... there still is a mid-range, but they all use DLP as a technology. There used to be many manufacturers that used LCD (Epson, Sanyo, Panasonic, Casio, ...), but only Epson remains. There should not be much R&D cost as it is quite established technology.
The business projectors of Epson use LCD combined with lasers and are quite cheap. The problem is that they focus more on brightness than colour reproduction, which is why they are not recommended for home cinema use.

Still, it feels wrong that to replace a 1500 euro LCD projector, the choice is between a 1500 euro 5 five year old model (with lamp) or a 3500 euro model with laser.