What CPU/System Would you Buy Today?

[Nuno]

isochar, pleeeeease. Even Intel has plans on avoiding RDRAM like the plague. They´re just waiting for their contracts to finish. Look how itchy they are to release i845 with DDR support. If they have so much faith on RDRAM, why waiting resources designing a DDR chipset??

RAMBUS is going to die soon. They deserve it after all.

KT266A motherboards are already scoring 1Gb memory bandwidth, previously RDRAM territory. Dual channel DDR 266 will be out on a month or so with nForce. DDR 333 is starting soon. QDR RAM is what´s the future is about. Imagine a 166Mhz quad pumped dual channel memory bus. That´s 10x the bandwidth DDR 266 provides. I want to see RAMBUS beating this.

[Novdid]

Iso, I'll keep this short.

Some maybe think that I am anti Intel, but the fact is that Intel do make very good CPU's and is far as I know the best chipset designer so far.

But then there is the HUGE (>200$) price premium of having a sticker that sais "Intel inside" and the GHz numbers...and that's only the CPU costing twice the amount you pay for a comparable AMD cpu.

At least we agree that $15-30 will not impact the price tag of the computers we build. That said, who cares if RDRAM requires pairs of modules? The stuff is so cheap these days that people are filling their boards.

Hey...it's still $15-30, you could buy a extra stick of DDR or do whatever you like with that money, maybe buy a present for someone you like very much, who knows.

Please do not take this as an insult, but in my opinion money is money, and those who have lots of it buy Intel and are very happy with their choice, I know I am happy with my (AMD) choice.

Other than this I do agree with some of the things you said.

Edit: misspilling mie voerds

[isochar]

No, AMD is AMD's only hope for a stable, mainstream chipset. Let's hope they can come to grips with that fact and produce them in quantity, and give incentives to mobo makers to include them on their boards.

AMD has made it clear that they will not consider themselves as a chipset manufacturer. Hence, nVidia is AMD's best shot at a stable, mainstream chipset.

Isochar, you're biased and uninformed. Stability is not an issue in AMD systems using decent (AMD) chipsets and a good power supply. I don't see why either of these issues applies to any of us here, now that there are 760MP boards available for $200-220 which utilize AMD north and south bridges. Furthermore, AMD prices allow you to buy the two cpus for about the same money as a single P4 would cost. The performance of 760MP using the EV6 bus is pretty darned impressive, the moreso when you can have the following system for the ridiculous price of about $850.00.

Biased, yes. Uninformed, no. I've had plenty of experience with Intel, VIA, AMD, and ALI chipsets paired with Intel/AMD processors. From my experience, I've had the most trouble with VIA chipsets, then ALI, followed by AMD, and of course Intel with the least amount of trouble. (Almost none) This may be due to several reasons, from the quality of Intel engineering to programmer bias towards Intel based computers. Ultimately, looking at the average number of problems with systems based on Intel, AMD, or VIA chipsets; you'd discover that Intel is the most stable, problem-free solution.

Stop insulting people's intelligence here. Now look at my current (2yr old) system and tell me if I am, in fact, not MORE obsessed with stability than you are:

You seem to be the only one offended. I have stated that I speak from my experience, and your experiences maybe different than mine. On a side note, I have yet to see anyone else post links to data that supports their claims.

isochar, pleeeeease. Even Intel has plans on avoiding RDRAM like the plague. They´re just waiting for their contracts to finish. Look how itchy they are to release i845 with DDR support. If they have so much faith on RDRAM, why waiting resources designing a DDR chipset??

Intel is avoiding RDRAM due to the overwhelming pressure on them due to Rambus's legal battles. Coincidence that Intel started changing sides when Rambus started losing cases? They have faith in the *technology* of RDRAM, but are worried about the corporation backing it.

RAMBUS is going to die soon. They deserve it after all.

Who the hell cares about the actions of a company as long as the product you get is cheaper/superior to the competitions? If that's the case, don't buy fish because the nets can catch endangered species. Don't buy gas because the gas companies dump chemicals illegally. Oh, and don't buy nVidia based products because they steal employees and technology from other companies. (Ask Greebe about this )

All I am discussing is the technology of RDRAM.

KT266A motherboards are already scoring 1Gb memory bandwidth, previously RDRAM territory. Dual channel DDR 266 will be out on a month or so with nForce. DDR 333 is starting soon. QDR RAM is what´s the future is about. Imagine a 166Mhz quad pumped dual channel memory bus. That´s 10x the bandwidth DDR 266 provides. I want to see RAMBUS beating this.

Do you see how expensive the dual-channel boards will be? For the first time an AMD-based chipset is more than *anything* for Intel. That's the beauty of RDRAM, it has a serial (16 bit) interface that doesn't consume a lot of PCB space and is easier to implement. (Hence cheaper)

Some maybe think that I am anti Intel, but the fact is that Intel do make very good CPU's and is far as I know the best chipset designer so far.

Here's one person that agrees with me that Intel chipsets are the best due to performance and/or stability.

Please do not take this as an insult, but in my opinion money is money, and those who have lots of it buy Intel and are very happy with their choice, I know I am happy with my (AMD) choice.

I do not take your statement as an insult. Some people have a budget to work with, others have more money than they know what to do with. (I'm somewhere in between) I brought this discussion up to share information that I have. I'd appreciate it if others could do the same, rather than get defensive and say AMD/DDR is the best without any supporting evidence.

[dZeus]

The problem is that preliminary testing shows that the faster the P4 CPU, the higher speed increase you get by using RDRAM over DDR-SDRAM (coupled with a i845).

So I either hope this gaps will be due to not enough DDR optimilisations in the i845 sample that was tested, or that rambus will fall in price a lot

[KvHagedorn]

Isochar, I will agree with you that Intel does indeed make the best chipsets in the X86 world. My first experience working closely with a Windows based system was an (Intel) 486 system we had at work (don't remember the chipset particulars on that one). After that was the K5/100 system we had which I believe had either a VIA or an SIS chipset. Both systems were truly annoying pieces of garbage, because they were purchased from an off-brand OEM who had used very questionable components. My awful experiences with those two earlier systems led me to be very picky about hardware when I got around to building my own systems.

I have 3 systems at my house and one at the office, all of which I personally built and frequently use. The three at my house are Intel Chipsets, an FX Board with a Pentium Pro 200/1MB, a BX Board with a P3/550, and the GX board with dual P3/600s. At work I have an AMD 750 Chipset (North and South bridges) with an Athlon Classic 700 running on it. There have been no issues with any of these motherboards that I could tell you about, and that was my primary purpose in choosing those boards. I don't want issues, so I find the best available board at the time for the platform I'm building. All three of the Intel chipsets have been working fine for me, so my only personal experience with AMD Chipsets is that one 750 Board. The only thing I can really say to put the Intel Chipsets first on the list is that it's been no problems times three there. The 750 board has really performed well, which has given me no qualms about recommending the 760 and 760MP boards. AMD really does make some excellent chipsets, but if we must rank them, I would generally give Intel the first slot, since they've had more experience and have gotten them out there with more forcefulness than AMD has. Wait, there IS the 820, but I guess we'll let that one slide and chalk it up to growing pains, being Intel's first Rambus chipset. If AMD is in second place, they still get a grade of at least an A, whereas VIA and the rest of the crowd rates at best a C.

Now, you were saying:

AMD has made it clear that they will not consider themselves as a chipset manufacturer. Hence, nVidia is AMD's best shot at a stable, mainstream chipset.

They did say that once, but things may change. I really think they will be forced into the business out of necessity. No one else can really take care of their reputation as well as they themselves can, and being forced to sell most of their chips on poor chipsets will just continue to give them black eyes. Even AMD management is smart enough to realize this after awhile. Given the fact that Dresden will be able to produce enough chips at .13 to supply 30% of the entire market on its own, and the flash market is glutted, I think we will see Austin being used for chipset and perhaps Motherboard manufacture. That's what I would do if it were my decision.

Now, where is your evidence that nVidia will be any better at producing chipsets than VIA and the rest of the Taiwan gang? I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt, as many seem to have done. They have never built a chipset before, and now they are trying to be the first to build one with AMD's advanced hypertransport technology. It would be nice if they were to succeed and produce a chipset which is stable as well as fast, but they're gonna have to prove to me that they can do it first.

The first and foremost point in this thread is, however, which CPU one would pick for his/her system. As far as I'm concerned, since the 760MP is available as a seriously excellent chipset solution, the Palomino wins hands down. It's a better design, being designed by Alpha engineers and being uncompromised by an overbearing marketing department as the P4 has been. It is also less expensive and can be put in a dual CPU configuration (which, using the EV6 protocol, is an even better design than the Intel dual P3 solutions were). It uses DDR RAM, which is a less expensive and better solution for most practical purposes than RDRAM, because of latency issues. It has a superior FPU, which in my mind is the sine qua non for winning as best and fastest processor. The same things that made the P6 architecture superior to the K6 have made the K7 architecture superior to the P4's. It is arguable that some of the special features in the P4 architecture will make it faster with future applications, but it's a weak argument, IMHO. MMX and SSE were initially adopted mainly by Intel-specific benchmarks to prove their worth, and by the time SSE2 is being utilized at all, the Hammer series will be incorporating that as well. With a better all-around FPU design, the SSE and SSE2 instructions will work even better. It's a marketing gamble that P4 will be able to win with pure GHz. It may yet, though. If there is one thing I can say Intel has over AMD hands down, it's a good marketing department. They may need to be muzzled though, if Intel is ever to bring really excellent designs like the P6 series to market ever again.

[Novdid]

Kv, I agree with you in your belief that the AMD CPU's are better designed than their Intel counterparts, a cpu that can render a 3dStudio frame in half the time a P4 can do it, is in my opinion a pure manifestation of FPU power. But never say never the P4 is just as good of a design as the P6 ever was.

The sad thing is though that I know several people that do alot of work in 3d Studio Max (r4), and the system they get is a P4 + RDRAM, why you may ask.

Reasons:

#1 They want to get the best with a lot of MHz (1400 vs 2000, 266 vs 800). It just has to be soooo much better than the AMD system.

#2 They only want the most expensive on the market, and not any cheap second grade AMD stuff.

If AMD keep their prices so low it's great for you and me, but then there is the average Joe that doesn't know everything that just looks at the price and the magical numbers and thinks he has the best system ever put togheter, just because small orange men told him that. Amd's competitve pricing gets right back to them in some rare cases, sadly.

Take a BX board ad DDR support, and slap on a Palomino and you have the best thing in this x86 world. (dreams)

[MultimediaMan]

Ask me again when Serverworks has a DDR PIV chipset with real AGP support...

[KvHagedorn]

If AMD keep their prices so low it's great for you and me, but then there is the average Joe that doesn't know everything that just looks at the price and the magical numbers and thinks he has the best system ever put togheter, just because small orange men told him that. Amd's competitve pricing gets right back to them in some rare cases, sadly.

I've made the same point over and over on the AMD board at the Motley Fool. Guess Jerry Sanders knows better than me though. eh? That's why he's rich and I'm poor. /sarcasm