Careers in computing...A+? MSCE? BSc? Diploma?

[GNEP]

No. But I know people that have done OU (usually older!) and have been pleased. But this is not IT - more like English or Philosophy. But it has got a reasonably good reputation these days afaik

[KeiFront]

Jammrock summed it up quiet nicely.

"There has been a recent hurt on certs lately due to 'paper techs.' People with no real computer knowledge that took some cert classes and passed some tests, but has no real-world skillz. This is were experience comes in, it shows that you are not a 'paper tech' and that you have developed tech support skillz."

You can't imagine which people we had here on job interviews, some people had a very nice CV with lots off certifications but no skills at all .

[The PIT]

Left school did various jobs then went back to University and got a degree in Control engineering. Came out to find I wasn't wanted by any employer.
Too old at 30 No work experiance Over Qualified plus other daft refusals. Some of the wages on offer were laughable as well so those interviews I messed up but you got to go to keep the Dss happy.
After several months sweet talked the DSS into letting me do a one of the Government training courses and got two NVQ's Novell networking.
Bingo got a job striaght away.
The company that did the training got done for defrauding the government two years later. Says a lot oabout employers and Government training.

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by KeiFront
Jammrock summed it up quiet nicely.

"There has been a recent hurt on certs lately due to 'paper techs.' People with no real computer knowledge that took some cert classes and passed some tests, but has no real-world skillz. This is were experience comes in, it shows that you are not a 'paper tech' and that you have developed tech support skillz."

You can't imagine which people we had here on job interviews, some people had a very nice CV with lots off certifications but no skills at all .

I'm just the opposite. I have over 6 year of tech support skillz but I have no paper certs. Nobody wants me and they think I'm a novice, meanwhile ****nutz over can't figure out how to chage the time on his vcr and he ends up landing a sweet ass job cause he's all paper and no REAL skills. Life's a bitch.

[GT98]

Well this is how I did it...I went into the Army after High School and hated it for the most part, got out and went to a computer Tech School that lasted for a year full time (8am-3pm) that covered everything from Basic English to MCSE type prep tests that really weren't worth anything due to the large size of the classes. I had some really good instructors that where semi-retired out of the Biz (one worked for IBM working on big Iron for the County Goverment) compaired to the programming teachers since it seemed that when ever they started someone new...they learn what ever programing language they where supposed to teach and leave within six months. The primary hardware teacher used A+ tests on his quizes from the Transenders and recommended highly to take the test. The great thing was when I tested in A+ I got an 87 and 97 on the two parts of it back in 1998 since I had just about every question on a quiz I already taken.

My first job was with a small company that had two guys running it...one did AutoCAD and programing for Autocad and the Other guy was doing the networking(Novell)/PC repair for local companies that mostly specilized civil engineering in the two counties that I live near. It was a fun job for the most part...I was doing alot of traveling and the customers we had where pretty cool. Money there sucked, but I learned alot.

I left that job and started my decent into hell when it came to jobs...from January 2000-July 2001 I went though 4 different jobs due to various reasons. The last one in that period was working for a school system and that was big mess...I never want to deal with a school system ever again like that. In July 2001 I started my current possition where I'm doing the hardware support for simulation equipment that the Army uses. Its mostly a OpenVMS network that I have I could use a better clue on how it works, but since I'm not doing the network end of it I dont have to worry that much. The other bad thing is most of the equpiment is 10+ years old, but oddly enough doesnt break that much save the Lazer disk players we have. I'm supposed to get new equipment based off Windows 2000 next year so I'm looking forward to getting back into something that I know how it works and be able to help out the current network admin since hes not up to snuff with it that well. The current job pays me 13K more a year compaired to the school job I had so thats a big help in itself. Only down side is that stuff doesnt break all that much and it can get boring at the job. I also just found out that the Goverment wants us to be A+,Network+ and MSCE certified..so I'm gonna be busy learning N+ and MSCE in the very near future. Oh well looks good on the resume

[Jammrock]

Originally posted by ZokesPro


I'm just the opposite. I have over 6 year of tech support skillz but I have no paper certs. Nobody wants me and they think I'm a novice, meanwhile ****nutz over can't figure out how to chage the time on his vcr and he ends up landing a sweet ass job cause he's all paper and no REAL skills. Life's a bitch.

Thus the need to for certs and experience. Employers don't like people with certs and no experience, and vice versa. You need them both before you can usually land the sweet jobs. Unless you're a grade A arse-kisser.

Sometimes you need to break down and take a helplessdesk job until your have a year's worth of expereince and couple of certs. The industry has taken quite the dramitic turn since the .com bubble burst, where they want people with certs and skills. Lack one and chances are you won't get the job.

Jammrock

[ZokesPro]

I'm doing tech support now (2 years running, for an International company) and came really close to being Cisco certified, dammit I wanted that one so bad!

[RedRed]

Go for it then, Zokes... Pay for it yourself.... I paid for my MCP's myself - never needed them for anything other than the Resume...

I have done the science foundation at the OU. It was intresting, but just because I wanted to broaden my knowlege. I never took it further - its like 5-6 YEARS.... if you want to get a degree - go to uni - you wont regret the experience.....

I have a HND myself.... my career went like this:

1980's Computa geek. Played around with toy computers

1897 (Jan) Became a student nurse - did 2 years realised it wasnt for me....

1990 (oct) started a HND in computer studies Brilliant time!

1992 Got a part time job at a regional library HQ, working on Macs doing DTP and learning loads

1993 the library became part time, started working in a local computer shop - you know the kind - independant/small supplying their clones to small business

1994 Made full time in tech sales. helped win an order to supply SEAGATE in derry with 250PC's (486 dx2 66 & later Pentium 60's !!!- almost a years supply! Whoopieeeeeeeeee (I was on comission then - lost most of it discounting but - happy dayz!) built/setup a LOT of machines - properly

1995 left there - didnt like my comision cut... went to work in a software house (bespoke stock control systems) - initially responsible for bugger all - tech support mostly.... ended up as training and implementation manager after 3 years....

last 3 years - project manager in a local health trust working with external software houses building a bigass oracle database. I dont actually have any experience in Oracle - I had some SQL but mostly (wait for it.... BTRIEVE!!!!) at least before now (Geez oracle 8i is a bitch!).


I would suggest that confidence and experience is the keys to getting the right job in IT. You new boss doesnt understand the tech, really. You have to make him/her feel that he/she can entrust you to get on with the job, and just keep them right. At least thats the way it feels to me now.

Wear a good suit, but not one more expensive than your prospective Boss. Dont spend less than £60 on your shoes. Dont wear a silly tie. Do wear good aftershave. These things will give you confidence when you sit before a panel/interview.

[ZokesPro]

Well, we (me and my co-workers) were supposed to get a new Server contract and with that came Cisco training and a big fat raise. But our client (whom we ultimitely work for) didn't want us to spend all that time in training (cause they couldn't afford the tech down time) so they offered to accept but they only wanted to give us half the training.

Our company said that we either get full training or nothign at all and hence the loss of Cisco.

But I could alwyas get the cert. myself. I'll have to clear up some time for it.

[Jammrock]

Getting employers to pay for training in the tech world is a pain in the butt. This is why employers like finding people that are already certified in all the stuff they want, because it cuts down on their budgets

After you've been with the company for a while, you can weasel some training out of them more easily. I'm working on my WIn2k MSCA. Will take the Win2k Pro test in the next month.

Jammrock

[Byock]

Hmm, A+, M.C.S.E. CCNA. and what do I do? Admin for Linux and Netware. Go figure...

My certs did not seem to help me 1 bit...had them since 1999.


Just my .02 Cents worth.

[Ali]

Good timing on this question. I just had to go through the pain of an arse job of hiring a new techie to try and train up.

My title at my job is 'IT Manager', but in reality Im a cross between a Network admin, DBA, programmer, and help desk for top management. Good pay though

Anyway, we advertised for a qualified IT professonal, and got 250 replys! I suppose we should have been more specific, but then we need is someone who can do everything.

We have a mix of new custom and old legacy software, custom written in asm back in 1979 on Burrows mainframes, thats been ported over to MS DOS, that will cost far too much to replace, so we needed someone with experiance in legacy stuff. No paper that I know of does that.

We are a finance company, so some accounting/business background, or general understanding was needed.

Most of the day to day stuff is database related, so need someone who knows enough NOT to **** up the DB. IE, nothing at all, or lots and lots. A little knowledge is VERY VERY dangerous here.

If you dont know something, then own up. It will save bad feeling leter own.

People skills. Nobody on the first day had any.

Bollock papers like A+ etc are ignored. CISCO is noted, but doesnt realy count unless there was a close tie.

Some sort of 'real' degree. I wanted some 'mind training', and looked for science degrees. Not necessary in computeing, but things like physics, chemistry, micro-biology etc. Doesnt matter what it was, as long as it proved an ability to learn. The guy whos my favorite at the moment has an electrical engineering degree.

As of Friday, I had cut it down to a list of 10 people, mostly based on people skills. Out of that list 3 are possible, and I have my favorite. The Human resource monkeys have final say, but they have to pick from my list.

To let you know what this guy has, Ill try to list the bits I remember:

NZCE in electrical (I have one in mechanical, so know whats involved).

Good guy, easy to talk to, and was honest (owned up to some stuff he didnt know).

2 years writting help files for a retirement home software package.

Passed the SQL test I set (simple natural join query of three tables through two linking tables), just took him 1 minute, and had never seen our ERD before. That was quite impressive. I expect that from people who already know the DB layout.

He has a CCNA, but as I said earlier, that didnt realy matter, just meant he was serious (he paid for it himself).

Had a very good understanding of legacy systems, from simple batch scripting to obvious hardware fault diagnostics.



As an example of someone who didnt get the job:

Had a Phd in physics.

Had 10 years UNIX experiance (we run Debian Linux on backend stuff).

Lots of bollock papers (MS papers, etc).

Thought he was a DB expert (but couldnt finish the test after 30 minutes). ie, he lied.

Though he was doing me a favour by appling for the job (ie, he was a twat).

Came in wearing jeans and a (smelly) woolen jumper (into MY SERVER ROOM!!).


Shit, this has gotten long, and is probably off topic by now, I suppose I just needed a place to put down my thoughts after a week of lost work.

Good luck, and remember that first impressions are the most important thing. Once you have a face to face interview that is.

Ali

[GT98]

Originally posted by Ali

Came in wearing jeans and a (smelly) woolen jumper (into MY SERVER ROOM!!).

Jeeze how hard is it to dress approptately when going on an interview??

[DantePN]

Computing career? I guess it totally depends on your location. Here (Maryland/DC, USA) it's a complete bitch trying to find a job. 90% of the jobs I've seen call for senior folks who can do everything (Java & C++ & Perl & XML & ASP & EJB & COBOL & Python & C & GUI programming, etc) or folks with Top Secret security clearances. Got my degree in CompSci, been programming in everything Java since it was released (when the JGL was like "WOW!"), got C++, C#, built my own DRM, done GUI development in 3 languages... and I haven't been able to find a job in the last 8 months. No one wants me because I don't have 10 years of experience and I don't have a security clearance.

Then again, some of these companies are also asking for folks with 10+ years of Java programming experience. If anyone knows of someone with that, I'd love to talk to them!

But seriously, I think it's all about the location!

As for what to study, the market trend I see is moving towards Java, C# (MS will start pushing it....), and XML languages (parsing). DBAs will be needed to keep all the information in check. And networking engineers will be required to get everything talking to everything else. Most importantly, network security and various security infrastructure folks are and will be in demand for another 2-3 years. How many folks use the standard WEP algorithm for their wireless networks? Heh, and people wonder why war-driving is prevelent. Go for some Cisco certs. CCNA may not be much, but it can be used to get your foot in the door. CCIE, on the other hand.....

A degree in the field is a must. The industry has changed drastically. Two years ago, you could be joe schmoe who could add a user on NT and rake in $60k. Not so these days. With a degree in compsci, you should learn a conceptual base that will allow you to gain a greater understanding of everything technology. So when something new comes your way, you can be like "Oh, well that's like this only they changed that which decreases this time and provides X speedup over there. Now I just have to change this, this, and that and everything will work perfect!" Without such a conceptual base, you could learn Java and then look at C# and be like "AHHHHHH" and get totally screwed up.

Just my thoughts. I'm mad at the job market

[MrGaribaldi]

Originally posted by GT98
Jeeze how hard is it to dress approptately when going on an interview??

Well, I managed to loose a job coming looking too sharp...

A friend of mine had got me this interview with Norman (anti virus), as tech support...

I talked to him beforehand and he told me that I should come dressed in a jacket, shirt and casual trouser...

I came to the interview, we talked for about 30-40 min, then I left...
I was afraid I hadn't dressed sharp enough, as he was wearing a dark suit!

Two days later I call my friend to find out if I'd got the job/why I hadn't got it...

Turns out that I was dressed too sharp.... (The guy who landed the job had less experience than me, but had come dressed in jeans.... )

Only goes to show you never can tell...