No more BIOS, say hello to EFI

[Jammrock]

Admittedly, with CD boot technology more prominant than in the days I worked on Compaq machines, EFI would be much easier to 're-install' on a HDD. Just need to remember to keep my motherboard CD...

[Helevitia]

Originally posted by Wombat
I guess I'm probably the expert on this here.

I've worked with EFI. I've booted machines that use it, loaded Unix over it, and I've used the EFI programming interface to write my own OS handoffs.

EFI rocks. Intel came up with it largely because BIOS flash sizes are getting ridiculous. Boards right now are looking at 2MB of nv RAM, and some places would like to have 8(!)MB. EFI puts a nice, basic bootstrap in a small nv RAM, and then loads drivers and whatnot off of the hard drive.

A couple of my favorite things about EFI:
* Finally, the boot loader is independent of the operating systems on the box. F*ck you, Microsoft.

* Even on an utterly hosed OS install, you can get to an EFI prompt, move around, check hardware status, and load drivers to do at least basic things from the CLI

* EFI supports its own limited form of shell scripting, nsh.

* The EFI environment is good enough that you can keep things like simple ftp clients on the machine, so you can easily move a working OS bootstrap over to the machine, and booting off of the LAN is so simple it's almost stupid.

* An OS doesn't <I>have</I> to be EFI aware to run on an EFI box. If the OS can't use EFI to its advantage, EFI just kinda gets blown away during the boot process.

* OSes will be largely relieved of the problem where the hardware requires drivers it doesn't have. This is for things like hardware newer than the OS, or the best example is the 3rd party drivers hassle when installing on a RAIDed machine.
Basically, it goes like this:
- The machine is powered on, and EFI has set itself up at home.
- Something makes EFI boot an OS.
- OS says, "Hey EFI, I'm booting. Pass me a list of all the devices you've got."
...
"Hey EFI, hand me a pointer to this XYZ device, and I'll automatically use the generic protocols that let me interact with the device using the drivers you set up."

There's lots of other good stuff, but overall, I'm quite happy that EFI seems to be spreading. Also, LvR, there's nothing nefarious that EFI can do that today's BIOS and/or spyware can't already do.

thanks for the info wombat, looks good!

Dave

[Technoid]

Originally posted by Wombat
I guess I'm probably the expert on this here.

I've worked with EFI. I've booted machines that use it, loaded Unix over it, and I've used the EFI programming interface to write my own OS handoffs.

EFI rocks. Intel came up with it largely because BIOS flash sizes are getting ridiculous. Boards right now are looking at 2MB of nv RAM, and some places would like to have 8(!)MB. EFI puts a nice, basic bootstrap in a small nv RAM, and then loads drivers and whatnot off of the hard drive.

Drivers??? It does sound like a specialised micro os

A couple of my favorite things about EFI:
* Finally, the boot loader is independent of the operating systems on the box. F*ck you, Microsoft.

Agree totaly with this

* Even on an utterly hosed OS install, you can get to an EFI prompt, move around, check hardware status, and load drivers to do at least basic things from the CLI

Sounds more and more like an OS.....
We already have this in the recovery console of XP
And if the HDD is hosed we still have to get and CD.....

* EFI supports its own limited form of shell scripting, nsh.

* The EFI environment is good enough that you can keep things like simple ftp clients on the machine, so you can easily move a working OS bootstrap over to the machine, and booting off of the LAN is so simple it's almost stupid.

* An OS doesn't <I>have</I> to be EFI aware to run on an EFI box. If the OS can't use EFI to its advantage, EFI just kinda gets blown away during the boot process.

* OSes will be largely relieved of the problem where the hardware requires drivers it doesn't have. This is for things like hardware newer than the OS, or the best example is the 3rd party drivers hassle when installing on a RAIDed machine.

This reminds me of IBM systems with microchanel

Basically, it goes like this:
- The machine is powered on, and EFI has set itself up at home.
- Something makes EFI boot an OS.
- OS says, "Hey EFI, I'm booting. Pass me a list of all the devices you've got."
...
"Hey EFI, hand me a pointer to this XYZ device, and I'll automatically use the generic protocols that let me interact with the device using the drivers you set up."

There's lots of other good stuff, but overall, I'm quite happy that EFI seems to be spreading. Also, LvR, there's nothing nefarious that EFI can do that today's BIOS and/or spyware can't already do.

Anyway, it don't seem to bad , but in someways its awfully close to make Microsoft dislike it

[Wombat]

Originally posted by Technoid
Drivers??? It does sound like a specialised micro os


Agree totaly with this



Sounds more and more like an OS.....
We already have this in the recovery console of XP
And if the HDD is hosed we still have to get and CD.....

Umm, that's what a BIOS is Technoid. It stands for Built-In <B>Operating System</B>. Right now, your BIOS has all the drivers for the IRQ chips, floppy drive, I/O, etc. You just take it for granted that your computer just does that?

This reminds me of IBM systems with microchanel

Then I guess you're confused, because it's nothing like microchannel.

[thop]

Sorry Wombat, BIOS stands for Basic Input Output System

[GNEP]

I always thought it was Basic Input/Output System...

I'd go with Wombat though - he actaully knows what he's talking about... .

Edit: too slow - thop beat me to it!

[Jon P. Inghram]

Binary Information Ordering Sorter.

I seem to remember a computer that had a good chunk of it's OS embedded in ROM... nahh, must have been imagining things.

[Wombat]

Originally posted by thop
Sorry Wombat, BIOS stands for Basic Input Output System

Depends who writes the documentation. Still, the BIOS does have to handle all of those things I mentioned.

Over the past few years alone, the BIOS has added:
The floppy system
IDE control as the devices were integrated to the chipsets
The complex state machine that is the ATX protocol
APIC
Thermal protection/control
CPU speed control

I'm sure if you just threw all that stuff on the table, and asked BIOS writers 10 years ago whether it belonged, they would have laughed you out of the room. EFI is a progression, just as all this has been.

[Technoid]

Originally posted by Wombat
Umm, that's what a BIOS is Technoid. It stands for Built-In <B>Operating System</B>. Right now, your BIOS has all the drivers for the IRQ chips, floppy drive, I/O, etc. You just take it for granted that your computer just does that?

Sorry Wombat, but the bios hasn't any "drivers" in the sense you are implying.....
MS-DOS, Unix, Linux, Windows has drivers......

Then I guess you're confused, because it's nothing like microchannel.

With MC computers you had to install "ID files" for the card to be recognised by the MB BIOS before it would even be seen by any os, after that you still had to load drivers for it for any os you used...

Originally posted by Wombat
Depends who writes the documentation. Still, the BIOS does have to handle all of those things I mentioned.

Over the past few years alone, the BIOS has added:
The floppy system
IDE control as the devices were integrated to the chipsets
The complex state machine that is the ATX protocol
APIC
Thermal protection/control
CPU speed control

I'm sure if you just threw all that stuff on the table, and asked BIOS writers 10 years ago whether it belonged, they would have laughed you out of the room. EFI is a progression, just as all this has been.

The floppy system???? (I se marbles rolling around)
Am I'm to take it that there are drivers coded into the biOS that makes the floppy work and before they where added I would have to load drivers(tell me how I could have done that on the hypotetical computer) to make it work???

[Technoid]

Another thought just hit me:
If the EFI loads things from disk(whatever it loads) that will be susceptible for viruses

[Wombat]

No, not really. Write protection works, just like current MBR protection.

[High_Jumbllama]

Hehe. The new Amigas were supposed to have Linux on the motherbaord and the Amiga OS on the hard drive.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Technoid
Sorry Wombat, but the bios hasn't any "drivers" in the sense you are implying.....
MS-DOS, Unix, Linux, Windows has drivers......


With MC computers you had to install "ID files" for the card to be recognised by the MB BIOS before it would even be seen by any os, after that you still had to load drivers for it for any os you used...


The floppy system???? (I se marbles rolling around)
Am I'm to take it that there are drivers coded into the biOS that makes the floppy work and before they where added I would have to load drivers(tell me how I could have done that on the hypotetical computer) to make it work???

my...you never made holes in cardboard cards?

there were other devices before the floppy...punchcarsd, tapes, wires...it's just an evolution. Progress is when the drivers _are_ in the BIOS...

[Wulfman]

Originally posted by Wombat
No, not really. Write protection works, just like current MBR protection.

aren't there some MBR - viruses (checked the spelling )? so hopefully it works better than current MBR protection.

mfg
wulfman

[WyWyWyWy]

Any chance for screenshots?

Anyway, to my understanding is that BIOS handles interupt calls, not "loading drivers" etc.