Opera for free!

[GuchiGuh]

Opera is still too bloated in my opinion.
I like the E-mail client thou, that's a nifty idea. Like combining firefox and thunderbird!

[Jessterw]

As az will tell you, it's not bloated, it's feature-rich Honestly though, people who use Opera are the same people who would use Communicator. It's meant to be a one-stop-shop for browser and email needs (as well as IRC and a few other things).

[az]

Actually, I would never use communicator, because it's just too sluggish. I had to get used to the "all internet communication in one app" idea, now I find it very nice, but I would have no problem with a separate mailer - what I like about Opera is the speed, features and UI. It has lots of features (overwhelmingly many if you are new to it, I'll admit, though v8 will ease it for newbies), but these features neither make it slow nor do they necessarily make its UI cluttered or inefficient.

AZ

[Nowhere]

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What Opera version are you using?
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There are some sites that slow Opera way down (I think it's some plugin issue
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Turn off "smooth scrolling" or whatever it's called, with this off my Opera reacts faster and more directly to the scrollwheel than any other app I've tried
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I don't know what you mean by the crollbar detaching from the mouse - you scroll and suddenly it is as if you had lifted the finger off the button for a split second? I never had that problem in any app
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AZ

Newest official & newest beta, the same problem in both.
Perhaps it is because of the sites...but the ones I visit are rather popular/well written (w3c validation) so that would be a big minus for Opera...
And I don't mean it doesn't react to scrollwhell, it simply stops reacting a second or two after start of scrolling, you have to wait a little, it works again, and so on...
About scrollbar - almost as you describe, only that it is as if I had lifted the finger permanently. And I also never had that problem in any app - apart from Opera...

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They've always been in third place (although very influential: almost all the good features you can find in Moz/FF and future IE versions have been pioneered by them).
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AZ

You know...you always talk about them - but can you name them? :>

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but these features neither make it slow nor do they necessarily make its UI cluttered or inefficient.

AZ

Yes they do. You say something different because you're used to them (and they had been added gradually from your perspective). For somebody new to Opera the make browsing experience slow (you have to focus on "distractors"), the UI is not optimal and doesn't have an obvius way of changing it and some options are on and can't be turned off (I've turned off mouse gestures, yet Opera still reacts for combination of right-left clicking)

[Jessterw]

Newest official & newest beta, the same problem in both.
Perhaps it is because of the sites...but the ones I visit are rather popular/well written (w3c validation) so that would be a big minus for Opera...

Might be worth noting that some of the Opera developers were instrumental in creating many of the W3C specs, most notable being CSS.

[az]

Newest official & newest beta, the same problem in both.
Perhaps it is because of the sites...but the ones I visit are rather popular/well written (w3c validation) so that would be a big minus for Opera...
And I don't mean it doesn't react to scrollwhell, it simply stops reacting a second or two after start of scrolling, you have to wait a little, it works again, and so on...
About scrollbar - almost as you describe, only that it is as if I had lifted the finger permanently. And I also never had that problem in any app - apart from Opera...

Please post in the official my.opera.com forums about these issues (as well as the mouse gesture thing); I can't help you, but I am sure they can (or they could at least say "you're not alone" )

You know...you always talk about them [Features FF and others copied off Opera] - but can you name them? :>

Just off the top of my head: Tabbed browsing (although tabs are a dumbed-down version of Opera's full MDI), mouse gestures, zoom, extensive preferences (graphical; many more options by fiddling with .ini files), switching on/off images, user style sheets, focus on speed and security... These may not be options you use often or even like, and of course MDI and mouse gestures were not invented by Opera, but they were the first to integrate these into a web browser. Of course there are other things Opera has

Yes they do. You say something different because you're used to them (and they had been added gradually from your perspective). For somebody new to Opera the make browsing experience slow (you have to focus on "distractors"), the UI is not optimal and doesn't have an obvius way of changing it and some options are on and can't be turned off (I've turned off mouse gestures, yet Opera still reacts for combination of right-left clicking)

You are partly right, I must say I really hated the v7 and 7.5 default interface. V8 is a lot better in that by default mail etc. are disabled, thus their menus etc. don't show. I still think their new features like viewbar, the bar that shows in an empty tab, and the sidebar icons add too much clutter and will confuse newbies. It's a dilemma for Opera: Show a non-cluttered, non-intimidating interface and still show off that you are capable of much more than all the other browsers. They are on the right track, but they're still not there.

AZ

[Jessterw]

Actually the first browser to use tabs was called InternetWorks (later redubbed GNNworks), circa 1994. It was eventually bought out by AOL.

The use of tabs in Firefox and other browsers are UI decisions that were made because the developers didn't feel that a MDI best served their purposes. It's not like implementing a MDI is all that hard.

Zoom is just Opera's alternative to text zooming. I remember in the early days this feature was generally not liked. As far as speed and security go, it's rather hard for Opera to lay claim to that as every browser developer has strived to make their product faster and more secure (even MS, god bless their incompetent souls). In regards to preferences... well, Opera has too many. There's some bloat there that could be trimmed, but this is a problem that is starting to affect most browsers. User stylesheets are not a first of Opera's either, though Opera was the first to provide a drop-down list of selectable styles. Turning images on and off is something that other browsers have had for awhile as well, Opera just made it easier.

But you're right, Opera has innovated in the use of mouse gestures.

[xortam]

.... It's a dilemma for Opera: Show a non-cluttered, non-intimidating interface and still show off that you are capable of much more than all the other browsers. ...

I remember facing that same issue twenty years ago. I like the concept of usage modes (entry-level, experienced, expert) that became popular in the 90's but I see that you want to tease people up to a higher level.

[az]

I don't like the concept at all. You could just as well call the modes "crippled" and "bloated". Best thing IMHO would be to start with a basic interface (FF has this down quite good, I hear. IE had, before SP2) with easy and powerful customization (Opera shines in this regard, though it could still be both easier and more powerful - but nothing's perfect ). The only problem you face then is that users may not know about your features and you can't advertise them all. It is actually very common on the Opera boards that someone complains Opera hasn't got this or that feature and the user switched to Firefox and installed twenty extensions, when in fact Opera has had the feature for years.

AZ

[xortam]

What I meant to say is "I liked the concept of usage modes" back around '90, as a workaround to overwhelming the user. Programming has advanced somewhat since then.

[az]

Opera just announced that Adobe will use the Opera rendering engine in their Creative Suite 2 (press release), so obviously Opera is working on multiple fronts to sell licenses. This also has the added benefits of course, that websites made with Adobe CS2 will work hassle-free in Opera, and that they are very likely to look better on mobile Opera than on other mobile browsers.

AZ

[Jessterw]

Maybe GoLive will be something more than a half-ass web page development tool now, at least from the WYSIWYG perspective.

[VJ]

Maybe GoLive will be something more than a half-ass web page development tool now, at least from the WYSIWYG perspective.

Then again, they are using Opera...

Just kidding!
From a developpers point of view, it is a good thing to use a browser which conforms to the standards: if a site works properly there, it should do so everywhere else.
From a users point of view, it is different: it then is interesting to have a browser that properly shows all sites.


Jörg

[dbdg]

From a developpers point of view, it is a good thing to use a browser which conforms to the standards: if a site works properly there, it should do so everywhere else.
Jörg

That's the way I see it.

What I do find amazing though is how different things can look in Opera when your xhtml is slightly incorrect. I quite like Opera but it does need to be a tiny bit more forgiving.

[Jessterw]

Actually Opera is correct in not being forgiving with XHTML. The problem here is that XHTML is a XML syntax that was created to look and behave like HTML, but it is most definitely not the latter. XML is a strict language that does not offer lax interpretation. True, other browsers treat XHTML as HTML, but that's also a result of XHTML being served as text/html when it is should be served as application/xhtml+xml (something IE balks at).

Unless you're using features of XHTML then you really should be using HTML4.