HD-DVD or Blue Ray?

[Dr Mordrid]

HD DVD should be first out of the block. Toshiba, Samsung and others are coming out with players by Q4, and you just KNOW that the Chinese will be selling 'em at WalMart for $75 USD by Labor Day

In addtion to this Toshiba's HD DVD recorder/player is due to hit the shelves by Q4 at under $1000 USD.

Anyone care to guess what the Chinese recorder/players will cost?

Dr. Mordrid

[Jon P. Inghram]

Blue Laser players won't be able to playback DVD's period!

You mustn't have seen JTD's posts. Did you know that DVD players are not inherently backwards compatible with CDs? Yet, you ever seen one that didn't also play CDs? No manufacturer would make a Blu-Ray player that didn't also support DVDs and CDs, they'd never sell any if they did.

Here's some info on the different formats: http://www.hddvd.org/hddvd/difformat...8078472058736e

[Nowhere]

Of course it's not backwards compatible because the media is different!

HD-DVD player will be able to playback DVD media, but Blue Laser players won't be able to playback DVD's period!

...

Cheers,
Elie

Uhmm...I don't think hat's correct (AFAI understand the whole "incompatible" thing s just about production) - the only Blue Ray player I can think of (PS3) will be able to play DVDs without a problem...

[GT98]

ehhh I'll wait till the price comes down and I'll see which format wins

DVD will hold me over fine till then

[Helevitia]

I didn't vote in the pole because I don't know enough about either technology.

[xortam]

HD DVD should be first out of the block. ...

Sony has been demo'ing their 1080p Qualia 006 with video fed from their Blu-Ray player for months.

[Jammrock]

OKAY, LISTEN UP YOU PRIMATIVE SCREWHEADS!!

Blu-ray WILL BE BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE WITH DVD!!!! Nobody in their right minds, not even Sony, would EVER release a new format without making it backward compatible. All Blu-ray players will have to be DVD and CD compatible to use the Blu-ray logo:

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#2.4

Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD use blue laser technoogy, so for either of them to be backward compatible they must have a second, or dual pickup, laser system to be backward compatible.

On top of that, Blue ray already has demonstrated for it's 1x standard (meaning coming out late this year) disc that has a 50 GB BD-ROM and 8.5 GB DVD capacity on a single-sided, quad-layer disc. In fact, because Blu-ray starts its first layer at 0.1 mm instead of 0.6 mm like HD-DVD, they can pack in MORE layer of BD data on a single disc tan HD-DVD ever will. TDK has already demstrated a working 100 GB BD disc, while HD-DVD can still only pull off 45 GB and will launch at 30 GB discs compared to BD's 50 GB disc.

And if that wasn't enough, Toshiba's "hybrid" HD-DVD/DVD disc is a double-sided disc, while Blu-ray's is single sided, because HD-DVD and DVD start data layers at 0.6 mm, making it impossible (in version 1.0) to have a single sided hybrid disc.

In sum ... BD technology good, HD-DVD only okay...

Blu-ray all the way

Jammrock

[mmp121]

Jammie,

All of what you said is true. And is great news for the consumer. What about the manufacturer? HD-DVD with its 0.6mm layer is very similar to DVD. Hence it allows them to switch over to HD-DVD quickly and "keep prices low". While Blu-Ray with its 0.1 mm starting layer is definitely more advanced and technically superior, it gives current DVD manufacturer’s fits because they need to re-tool their production lines to produce Blu-Ray discs. And hence they need to spend $ to do so, and pass the cost on to us, the consumer. Which means disc prices will most likely start out higher and then eventually work their way down to the current pricing levels.

[Jammrock]

Jammie,

All of what you said is true. And is great news for the consumer. What about the manufacturer? HD-DVD with its 0.6mm layer is very similar to DVD. Hence it allows them to switch over to HD-DVD quickly and "keep prices low". While Blu-Ray with its 0.1 mm starting layer is definitely more advanced and technically superior, it gives current DVD manufacturer’s fits because they need to re-tool their production lines to produce Blu-Ray discs. And hence they need to spend $ to do so, and pass the cost on to us, the consumer. Which means disc prices will most likely start out higher and then eventually work their way down to the current pricing levels.

Yes, this is a promblem that the Blu-ray consortium has been working. Read teh top story at their website:

http://www.blu-ray.com/

I bet they'll take small profits in the beginning to counter the lower cost of HD-DVD discs. Blu-ray has lots of really big backers, and some very large Hollywood backers to boot. It'll be a close battle but my money is on Blu-ray to win in the end...assuming the formats are merged.

[UtwigMU]

Maybe since BluRay will definitely become next PC media (all major PC makers such as Dell, Apple, ETC... are behind it), MPAA will maybe opt for HDDVD in order to prevent piracy?

[magician]

Wait guys, I think you've missed the whole point of compatibility. As I understand, it is a matter of compatibility with existing DVD equipment, or at least costs of modifying/producing such hardware. Some of existing DVD hardware, with high quality optics, would probably require just a firmware update to support HD-DVD (at least single layer reading), while blue-ray devices will require complex optics in order to deal with both standards.

This means that it would cost much less to produce a DVD/HD-DVD unit then a DVD/Blue-ray one. Or you can put it this way... comparing two similarly priced stand alone players of competing formats, you will get a much better picture of HD-DVD one because manufacturers will spare on optics and can invest that extra money on higher quality electronics and power supplays. Not to mention that HD-DVD takes intelligent approach (higher compression codec) while Blue-ray goes brutal force (higher bandwidth).

Stating the obvious, blue light has a less wave length then the red one, so it gives you higher density margin, and that is inevitably a way to future optics storage as we know it. It's just a common sense. Every transition is painful and naturally Blue-ray comes with a price tag, especially in regard of backward compatibility. So if you ask me, I say lets get over with it. HD-DVD doesn't have anything that Blue-ray can't offer in one of it's future incarnations (MPEG4, more layers, etc). But as someone already said, it never turns up the way a wish, so... I think that HD-DVD will dominate mass market for quite some time.

Eventually blue laser will prevail, but not before Blue-ray2 or something alike. By then Toshiba will have it's vision of blue laser implementation and then we go again. I don't want to go off topic or turn this into a flame, but it just so smacks on x86-64 vs IA64.

[magician]

Ohh, wait... I have voted for HD-DVD. And as a said, it's not because I like it better then the Blue-ray, but because mass market will. On long term... blue one is the winner.

P.S. Hmmm... I wonder, why Chinese like the "red" one?

[Jammrock]

Wait guys, I think you've missed the whole point of compatibility. As I understand, it is a matter of compatibility with existing DVD equipment, or at least costs of modifying/producing such hardware. Some of existing DVD hardware, with high quality optics, would probably require just a firmware update to support HD-DVD (at least single layer reading), while blue-ray devices will require complex optics in order to deal with both standards.

Not possible. HD-DVD will be using a blue laser for it's optics, while DVD's use a red laser. There's about a 200 nm defference in wavelength between the two. So no matter how fine your red laser optics are it will not be able to read the pits and grooves in a HD-DVD. On top of that, all HD-DVD players will require it to decode MPEG-2 and 4, plus Microsoft's VC-1. While there are some players that support all of these, they are a rare few, without a blue laser you can not read them. So either way you WILL have to buy new hardware to play HD media.

This means that it would cost much less to produce a DVD/HD-DVD unit then a DVD/Blue-ray one. Or you can put it this way... comparing two similarly priced stand alone players of competing formats, you will get a much better picture of HD-DVD one because manufacturers will spare on optics and can invest that extra money on higher quality electronics and power supplays. Not to mention that HD-DVD takes intelligent approach (higher compression codec) while Blue-ray goes brutal force (higher bandwidth).

Optics are cheap, it's the chips that cost a ton of money. Once again, both Blu-ray and HD-DVD will both require a dual pickup, or two set of optics, to operate. You're assumption about compression is backwards. The more any audio or video is compressed the worse the audio/video will be when outputted ... period. Compression, save lossless compressions which use large amounts of data, always degrades the sound and video quality versus the original. Because Blu-ray has more capacity and a higher bandwidth they can use LESS compression, and thus a Blu-ray video will look BETTER than a highly compressed HD-DVD counterpart.

Stating the obvious, blue light has a less wave length then the red one, so it gives you higher density margin, and that is inevitably a way to future optics storage as we know it. It's just a common sense. Every transition is painful and naturally Blue-ray comes with a price tag, especially in regard of backward compatibility. So if you ask me, I say lets get over with it. HD-DVD doesn't have anything that Blue-ray can't offer in one of it's future incarnations (MPEG4, more layers, etc). But as someone already said, it never turns up the way a wish, so... I think that HD-DVD will dominate mass market for quite some time.

Initially both players will come out at the $999 price range later this year. The Blu-ray consortium is working very hard to match prices with HD-DVD without taking a loss, and early indications say they will be able to pull it off.

Eventually blue laser will prevail, but not before Blue-ray2 or something alike. By then Toshiba will have it's vision of blue laser implementation and then we go again. I don't want to go off topic or turn this into a flame, but it just so smacks on x86-64 vs IA64.

Blue laser already dominate the first generation HD format.... HD-DVD already uses a blue laser.

You also fail to take into account the Playstation 3, which comes out next year. Early indications show that the PS3 will be priced the same as the PS2, which puts it $299 (maybe $349) for a Blu-ray player that also plays games Blu-ray is in the best potition right now considering the sheer amount of backing it has.

Jammrock

[magician]

Not possible. HD-DVD will be using a blue laser for it's optics, while DVD's use a red laser. There's about a 200 nm defference in wavelength between the two. So no matter how fine your red laser optics are it will not be able to read the pits and grooves in a HD-DVD. On top of that, all HD-DVD players will require it to decode MPEG-2 and 4, plus Microsoft's VC-1. While there are some players that support all of these, they are a rare few, without a blue laser you can not read them. So either way you WILL have to buy new hardware to play HD media.

Ohh! I didn't realize that. I've not been following development of standards since first rumors, couple of years ago. It certainly changes my point of view, although I've always knew that Blue-ray is the long term winner.

Optics are cheap, it's the chips that cost a ton of money.

Well... I can't agree with you on that. I mean... chips are costly because of patent fees, but producing high quality, robust optics can't be cheap. Especially if you go for high dencity (high precision).

Once again, both Blu-ray and HD-DVD will both require a dual pickup, or two set of optics, to operate.

You're right about that, but it appears that HD-DVD will still have adventage here as it utilises the same disk structure as the current DVD format. As we all know (now ) it will gain for it much needed edge in cost of producing media and bringing it fast to market.

You're assumption about compression is backwards. The more any audio or video is compressed the worse the audio/video will be when outputted ... period. Compression, save lossless compressions which use large amounts of data, always degrades the sound and video quality versus the original. Because Blu-ray has more capacity and a higher bandwidth they can use LESS compression, and thus a Blu-ray video will look BETTER than a highly compressed HD-DVD counterpart.

No, no, no... I didn't mean "higher compression ratio" per se (with the same codec), rather utilising more sophisticated codec which compromises between computing power and compression ratio, not the image quality and the compression ratio.

I see your point, but there is mathematically lossless and perceptually lossles compression. I assume that you would agree that you can have much better picture out of same bandwidth with MPEG4 then MPEG1 stream, would you? Of course it will require more processing in real time, but it is possible.

Initially both players will come out at the $999 price range later this year. The Blu-ray consortium is working very hard to match prices with HD-DVD without taking a loss, and early indications say they will be able to pull it off.

I hope so, because I've always preferred nice and clean cut in transition then dragging burden of compatibility with obsolete technology. What can I say, I'm a pro Beta, Rambus, Itanium, Blue-ray and (of course) Matrox guy.

[Wombat]

Well... I can't agree with you on that. I mean... chips are costly because of patent fees, but producing high quality, robust optics can't be cheap. Especially if you go for high dencity (high precision).

Why can't that be cheap? It's just another evolution of 30+ year-old technology. Maybe if you were talking about the first CD player, but the optical systems are cranked out now, not black magic.