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[az]

I think we do have the tech, Gurm. Many mp3 players have sleek interfaces with smooth animations (on very slow processors), OSX on the desktop provides a very smoothly animated GUI without hardware acceleration (granted, on very powerful processors with lots of RAM). Many mobile phones have beautifully animated user interfaces, it's just that they aren't as easy to use as the iPhone's seems.

[Jammrock]

Battery life can be tweaked on modern phones a lot more than you think. I have a program called Pocket Hack Master on my WM5 phone. Originally it was designed to overclock your phone so you could run seamless video - which it does. But with v4 you can underclock your phone and scale the CPU speed. I have an extended life battery, 1800 mAh, and I can use that sucker all day with data, talk and MP3 over Bluetooth stereo and never run out of juice because I only use as much CPU speed as needed.

If the iPhone did something like that natively with agressive backlight turn off it could get good battery life. Especially if the backlight shuts off while you are talking on the phone (which I think was a feature).

I suppose it will be a "time will tell" answer.

[Claymonkey]

Battery life can be tweaked on modern phones a lot more than you think. I have a program called Pocket Hack Master on my WM5 phone. Originally it was designed to overclock your phone so you could run seamless video - which it does. But with v4 you can underclock your phone and scale the CPU speed. I have an extended life battery, 1800 mAh, and I can use that sucker all day with data, talk and MP3 over Bluetooth stereo and never run out of juice because I only use as much CPU speed as needed.

If the iPhone did something like that natively with agressive backlight turn off it could get good battery life. Especially if the backlight shuts off while you are talking on the phone (which I think was a feature).

I suppose it will be a "time will tell" answer.

So you're using one of those batteries that make the bulge in the back of the phone? Does the PCM do it's thing on it's own or do you have to remember to turn up the juice?

[Jammrock]

So you're using one of those batteries that make the bulge in the back of the phone? Does the PCM do it's thing on it's own or do you have to remember to turn up the juice?

Yes, one of those huge bulky things. I got it for free, otherwise I would have gotten the 1500 mAh that doesn't have the bulk, or the 3200 mAh with the bulk.

PHM does all the scaling by itself. You run a test on possible speeds, add the ones you want to a favorites pool, and then add those to your scaling pool. PHM does the rest.

[DGhost]

I think we do have the tech, Gurm. Many mp3 players have sleek interfaces with smooth animations (on very slow processors), OSX on the desktop provides a very smoothly animated GUI without hardware acceleration (granted, on very powerful processors with lots of RAM). Many mobile phones have beautifully animated user interfaces, it's just that they aren't as easy to use as the iPhone's seems.

See, the trick to interface design for an embedded app is that it is an optimized static interface. Someone designs the basic interface idea, it goes through usability testing and refinement, and then someone makes it look pretty. It is hardwired and optimized to look and act pretty. They function at very low levels and do not require much in terms of hardware support because most of the actual "beauty" that comes from them comes from the graphics assets they use - ie, the static icons, etc, and how they are handled.

Mobile phones have been doing this for some time. The latest generations of phones benefit from years of design experience and optimization. But, smartphones have been notoriously hard to do this with. Why? the have to have an interface is, by necessity, dynamic. They are more flexible and the UI has to be more flexible as a result. This presents a lot of challenges, ranging from performance to simple asthetics. WM6 is a direct attempt by Microsoft to update WM5's UI into something prettier.

onto the iPhone... I can see why they wanted to lock out 3rd party applications initially. Making a UI that is touch-sensitive and still looks and acts properly is difficult. Making a platform that allows others to do this is even more difficult. It is quite possible though, the price they will pay for this is by having a smartphone that is far more static than others on the market. You will not see nearly as much customization being done with these, and the shiney UI will only extend so far.

Interesting idea and concept... but I kinda gotta side with Gurm on this... it's pretty unrealistic for it to do what people expect it to be able to within the current power envelope...

[Gurm]

See, the trick to interface design for an embedded app is that it is an optimized static interface. Someone designs the basic interface idea, it goes through usability testing and refinement, and then someone makes it look pretty. It is hardwired and optimized to look and act pretty. They function at very low levels and do not require much in terms of hardware support because most of the actual "beauty" that comes from them comes from the graphics assets they use - ie, the static icons, etc, and how they are handled.

Mobile phones have been doing this for some time. The latest generations of phones benefit from years of design experience and optimization. But, smartphones have been notoriously hard to do this with. Why? the have to have an interface is, by necessity, dynamic. They are more flexible and the UI has to be more flexible as a result. This presents a lot of challenges, ranging from performance to simple asthetics. WM6 is a direct attempt by Microsoft to update WM5's UI into something prettier.

onto the iPhone... I can see why they wanted to lock out 3rd party applications initially. Making a UI that is touch-sensitive and still looks and acts properly is difficult. Making a platform that allows others to do this is even more difficult. It is quite possible though, the price they will pay for this is by having a smartphone that is far more static than others on the market. You will not see nearly as much customization being done with these, and the shiney UI will only extend so far.

Interesting idea and concept... but I kinda gotta side with Gurm on this... it's pretty unrealistic for it to do what people expect it to be able to within the current power envelope...

Wait, they're allowing 3rd party apps? I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to believe that they can do anywhere near what they say AND allow 3rd party apps ... as you say "within the current power envelope". They'd need a battery bigger than the phone.

[Jessterw]

They are planning to eventually allow 3rd party apps. Absolutely no confirmation on a positive "Yes, we are" and definitely no timetable given for when.

[DGhost]

from the horses mouth...

"This is an important tradeoff between security and openness. We want both. ... we'll find a way to let 3rd parties write apps and still preserve security on the iPhone. But until we find that way we can't compromise the security of the phone. ... I've used 3rd party apps... the more you add, the more your phone crashes. No one's perfect, and we'd sure like our phone not to crash once a day. If you can just be a little more patient with us I think everyone can get what they want."

They will be coming... eventually...

Static UI is pretty easy. I am willing to bet that the iPhone is far more of a fixed function device than people want to believe. Pretty press mockups and ads go a long way for people assuming how the device actually functions - but unfortunately they remain only assumptions.

of course, this goes hand in hand with the initial buzz around it "running OS X" - something which of course turned out to be total bullshit.

that being said... you would be suprised how far you can go with a static UI if you put the effort into actually refining and polishing it. hell, if you have well engineered/designed UI assets you can go a hell of a long way towards mimicking true dynamic UI functions.

either way, i'll stick with my WM5 smartphone. I can toss some pretty interesting programs on it...

[Jessterw]

Which just confirms what I said. There's been no positive "Yes" and any gaugeable timeline, just a "we'd sure like to" and a "if you can just be a little more patient".

Steve is leaving himself some wiggle room.

I have no doubt they will eventually allow some 3rd-party apps, but I also have no doubt that there are going to be some hefty restrictions and guidelines.


And erm, it is running OS X. That's in no way bullshit. The problem there is that you're equating the UI (Aqua) of Mac OS X with the actual underlying OS, which is OS X.

[DGhost]

And erm, it is running OS X. That's in no way bullshit. The problem there is that you're equating the UI (Aqua) of Mac OS X with the actual underlying OS, which is OS X.

Off the top of my head, what they meant by "OS X" was "Mach Microkernel w/ limited API." It is not going to run OS X by a long shot. It would make no sense to run OS X on it. Considering the whole architecture is different, you would loose out quite a bit if you did try to make OS X run on it. Way too much code bloat for an embedded device.

another way of putting it... iPhone will be running OS X in the same way that a Windows Mobile SmartPhone runs Windows NT. It doesn't, although what it runs might be derived from it at some point.

[Jessterw]

Sigh. You're still confusing Mac OS X and OS X as a subset of what is offered for desktop usage in the former. There's no use on a phone for many of the features and services that are available to someone using Mac OS X. However, there are still a number of core OS X technologies that are still likely used in the version powering the iPhone.

If you've noticed in any of Apple's marketing or whatnot they specifically use the term "OS X" opposed to the "Mac OS X" used elsewhere for almost anything to do with OS X as we traditionally know it.

Simply put again, it's Mac OS X without all the 'parts' needed for a desktop OS. It's still the OS X core, technologies, and any extras applicable to a smart phone platform.

[az]

I want Opera on my iPhone!

[Gurm]

I want Opera on my iPhone!

I want a GOOD version of Opera on my Windows Mobile phone, but alas I ain't getting it!

All I want is a web browser for my phone that renders down pages like they are rendered on the desktop, only SMALLER. Seriously, can it possibly be that hard?

[az]

How should that work? You wouldn't be able to read text (not because it'd be too small, but because the resolution just isn't good enough to make text that small readable).

Are you using Opera Mini or Opera Mobile?

[Gurm]

How should that work? You wouldn't be able to read text (not because it'd be too small, but because the resolution just isn't good enough to make text that small readable).

Are you using Opera Mini or Opera Mobile?

Opera Mobile. I want... look, I just want the page laid out properly. You can move the text around, whatever. I don't care if I have to pan around. NetFront did it on Palm devices. Pages are so complex nowadays that I end up scrolling for half an hour just to get to one button or some text.