Computer Audio - How bad is it?

[Bond007]

I have a set of Polk Audio RT800's and they sound awesome. Im planning to get some RM6500's (5.1 surround system) later, and people at audioreview gave it a good rating. Does anywone know where I can get some good deals online on home audio?

[ALBPM]

Don't go listen to any of the B&W line if you love music.....

Sorry, just kidding. Seriously if you can find a nearby dealer that carries the B&W line go and listen to them. Even if you have to drive a couple hours. DO IT!!!!!!

I'm in the process of setting up a conferance room at work with a video projector and a sound system. I took KvH's advice and looked at some B&W's (LM1's). I was totally blown away by the accuracy of the B&W speakers. The LM1's are a new model and can be mounted on a wall. Perfect for my needs at work. I can run the output from a SB Live to a reciever and through the LM1's. At $360/pair they are a good deal. They are a little weak on the bass end but OK for my needs at work.

For home use you should look at the B&W DM 600 series 2 speakers. They have a new tweeter design based on their Nautilus series that sounds very sweet and clear. A set of DM 601's or 602's would be excellent.

I went back with my wife later and spent another three hours listening to the various models in the B&W lineup. I had wanted to setup a Home Theater system for some time and this was just what we needed to take the plunge. We ended up getting the DM 605 series 2 speakers for the fronts. The powered subwoofers eliminate the need for a separate subwoofer. I also got the CDM CSE center which has an incredible range and compliments the 605's beautifully.

The December 99 issue of Stereophile magazine has a 10 page article on the 605's if your interested.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.html

Paul

[Brian R.]

The best speakers I ever heard, under $2000, are Energy. I have the Reference Connoisseur 22 (about 8-10 years old) and they are the clearest and most accurate set of speakers I have heard. I have been looking, and none of the current speakers I have listened to makes me want to change.

They were the speakers used to test the audibility of the 4-Hz notch the recording industry wanted to cut out of music CDs for copy protection. The testers concluded the notch was audible and did not allow the industry to insert it.

[Bixler]

It's been interesting going back through the posts on this thread, and I thought I might try to start it up again, but on some other issues relating to computers and digital audio.

First: I think the consensus among the interested parties here is that the loudspeaker is the last, crucial, and most effective link in the audio chain, and when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, you should buy quality ones that you have auditioned with your own ears with the kind of music that you like. You get what you pay for, and quality starts in the mid 3 figure range. 'nuff said.

Having said that, I'd like to hear from others who have kept up more closely with digital audio than I have in the past few years. Back in the earliest days of the advent of digital, there were many rabid purists (I dealt with many of them at retail) who swore that high quality analog recording was superior to the CD Audio standards that were just reaching wide acceptance. I really don't know if that's so or not, but my gut tells me that they were probably right...that something really is missing in the d/a conversion, and that what we've gotten used to in the past few years is an audio standard that is, admittedly, at a much higher average level of quality, but that in abandoning analog audio we've given up the ability to really reach the highest peaks of accurate audio reproduction. --Something's missing

Lemme cook that long ramble down to a simple question...Do digital audio formats and hardware NEED RAB's Dalquist DQ10's???

Just asking for some discussion--no flames please.

[This message has been edited by Bixler (edited 04 January 2000).]

[LAMFDTK]

This is the Line that I can't cross. hehehe Audio opinions with computer nerds...AHAHAHAHAH

Talk about a field that IS opinion..Audio..

I have been in many Recording studios in the NY area and have never come across B+W (means nothing but I thought I'd throw it in)
Great speakers though...

Yamaha NS10's (?) they are the speaker in 90% of Recording studios. Recording studio Mix down speakers are FLAT sounding, and for a reason, if you can make a recording balanced on them and sounding good, your doing your job !.

I like Mid-range (Guitars you remember them?) with a dash of clean highs. I hate Subwoffers in music playback. Film scores OK. (Retro Man) Give me one 12" woofer, 2 5" Mids and a good sounding tweeder....

Audio heads are much more snooty that Computer geeks. Audiophile Mag anyone?
Yea give me 2 MONO block tube amps with liquid cooled speaker wires anyday. But then again a Garard turntable thru a Fender Twin Reverb is the best sound anyway right?

[Brian R.]

Another way of phrasing the same question is to ask whether or not the analog recordings were really the best representation of live sound. Although it is intuitively obvious that there is a loss in DA conversion, the recording and playing back of complex wave forms on vinyl is just as obviously (to me) lacking. The problems or potential problems with the two forms of sound reproduction (D vs A) both manifest themselves most strongly at high frequencies. High amplitudes only potentially cause problems with analog methods of reproduction (not clipping, but on-scale reproduction).

In short, there is a definite difference in the sound between the D and A sound, but I don't think either one is totally accurate. My money is on digital. Piano and voice recordings tell me so.

[agallag]

Just putting in a good word for B&W. A friend of mine has a pair of 604i's and they're phenomenal. Out of my price range though. I may have to look at those LM1's...

Also, there's one key advantage to digital audio over analogue. Longevity. Every time you play a vinyl record, the groove gets worn down a little. Eventually, it'll sound like crap regardless of the level of care. Digital is the same every time (unless of course your dog gets at your CDs )

[Haig]

Hehe, an endless debate

My opinion about Pc speakers and sound cards is that, they're good for sound fx in gaming and nothing else.

Just lately, some games are starting to put in some kind of gothic and heavy metal sound tracks which don't cut it with the quality of D/A converters, the noisy 10w amp they put in the sound cards these days, and the size of the sampled waves.

You also get alot of hype about how good some sound cards are for the musicians. That's total nonsense because in order to get a really good reproduction of the actual instrument, the sampled wave in the sound card must be an 8mbyte sample for a full scale instrument like a piano. 5 octave instruments should have a sampled wav of ~ 1Mbyte.

Most, if not all, sound cards have sampled waves of 512Kbytes with some kind of compressions/decompression on the fly technique which gives the musician the feel of a small delay psychologically.

Alot of people think that a piano sound of a soundcard sounds real because what they here on the radio, is almost the same quality.
I don't think that most people have ever heard what a real grand piano sound like.

There is also a question of how natural it will sound. Being a keyboard player, the same applies to the synths. There is no way that a chip is going to reproduce the warmth and the sound of a Leslie speaker, a drummer on what angle his drun stick is each time he hits his snare drum,the tongue action of a brass section, or the angle of the bow of a string player. No matter how good the sampled wave is in the keyboard or in the sound card, it will never sound natural because of these little things.

LAMFDTK - I used the NS-10m's for almost a year but could never get used to them. I finally switched over to the Tannoy PBM-8 and got comfortable with them right away. Eventhough they are are a bit high on the bottom end, I use a few reference tapes before a mixdown.

Bixler - I think that the amp/pre-amp and the speakers should be properly matched together. Some combinations will either give distortion when you crank the volume or blow your speakers.

I use a Quad amp hooked up to Tannoy PBM-8 and Castle Pembrooke II speakers. I can really crank it up and with both sets of speakers, I get no distortion at all. However, using JBL speakers with my Quad, I do get a bit of low end distortion when I put it up past 4.

BTW, here in Canada, the Electrostats never took off. Did you have any luck selling any of those?

I still perfer the warmth of the analogue sound over digital eventhough you don't hear any snap/crackle/pop with the cd's. Even with all the oversampling the cd players are trying to do, the wave will never be a smooth curve. You'll always have the jaggies with the digital signal which results in that high end distortion. This is really noticeable if you play a violin piece and really listen to it when he holds the high notes. You can use Paganini's concerto's for this and regardless with what speaker/amp combo you have, you will hear it.

If they can manage to fix this high end distortion, then they are on their way to a perfect system.

I'm starting to see alot of stand alone D/A converters coming out for some cd players but don't know how well they work.

I tried running a cd player thru a stereo tube tech d/a converter ($6000) and even that didn't help the high end distortion.

Then you have the specs which aren't realistic. All companies will provide specs which are done in a perfect environment. Companies will never provide specs which were done in a regular room. If you really want to have that perfect flat sound (even if you amp/speakers are flat), you must get a full bandwidth graphic eq, rent a spectrum analyzer, rent 2 mic's, and eq your room. Then hope that no one plays with the eq's settings and don't move your listening chair Now you have the perfect room and no resonant frequencies.

I personally don't bother reading any specs and just let my ears be the judge.

Haig

[Bixler]

Thanks Haig!!!

Now lets try to keep this thing OFF the "which speakers are best" issue (TOTAL OPINION) and maintain Haig's high level of discussion. Haig, you addressed my question eloquently and put voice to what I thought I was hearing on my Yamaha NS1000's. (BTW these 100 lb. mamas are the big BIG brother to the NS10's--inefficient and, as Haig says, 'flat.' But accurate as hell. I like em for their accuracy and lack of coloration, but most folks ears like a little sweetening...I say that's what EQ's and good pre-amps are for.

But

ENOUGH ABOUT SPEAKERS!

(I just slapped myself for that!)

Haig, I can only reinforce your statement about matching the preamp/amp/speakers, and agree that of course it matters. But only when you've invested the price of a small car in all your electronics do any differences worth noticing show up, and only through GOOD loudspeakers. In my experience, what you'll notice is variations in the damping factor on the amp in the bottom end of the musical spectrum, along with the wild differences in voice coil impedance from speaker to speaker. Your JBL's that distort above a 4 setting were probably in need of more damping control, a difficult job to do in amplification, and a spec that is generally not taken seriously enough.

re: RAB's DQ 10 Electrostatics--Nah! Never could get people to take the 'Car Seat' look seriously...but a good crossover/subwoofer added and tuned correctly makes 'em a FINE choice. Just too wierd for the masses. RAB: I LIKE your DQ10's, Bro. It tells me that you've got an open mind, and a screw or two loose, just the right combination.

Haig, or others: How 'bout some pearls of wisdom on the issue of DVD digital...is the audio the same 44Khz sampling rate as CD? Is anything better on the horizon? And really, is there a sound card out there that will stay out of the way until you can get the signal into a real stereo?

I'm not arguing for a return to Analog...I've said earlier that I entered the 12 step program for audio nuts 15 years ago. What I am wishing for is a little more investment and innovation in the Digital audio realm. Personally, I think surround sound will turn out to be just another cruel joke if we as listeners don't demand improvement and quality.

[This message has been edited by Bixler (edited 05 January 2000).]

[LAMFDTK]

Bixler your like a game show host here....
You remind me of the guy I once knew that EQ a record on a scope to ensure proper levels.

Digital= all sound is "pressed up, foward" no depth.

Analog= Soundstage! If you mix a drum kit or keyboard "behind" the vocals, or whatever,and it sounds like it during
playback. Warm smooth sound. Cymbals sound like cymbals and Steinways are not Kurzweil's


I once sat at a Console, (48trk.) with Andy Wallace (Nirvana Nevermind) with the Soul Asylum recording of Grave Dancers Union. And It ruined me for life. Yamaha Ns10's mixed perfect! You have no idea how great a true Analog recording in its purest form sounds!

Computer Audio is like a good Boom Box ! I always liked the cheap wires and connectors.



[This message has been edited by LAMFDTK (edited 05 January 2000).]

[Brian R.]

There is no doubt that computer audio is a poor cousin to real audio, the real question I have is: What can we do about it? Are we stuck with MX300 and SBLive output? Is there a reasonable alternative with much better sound for DVD or CDs?

[RAB]

Bixler, thanks for the compliments on my DQ10's. They are showing their age now, but I can't afford audio and computers at the same time. I'll live with the car seats a while longer. Especially since I would have to spend a couple 000's to get better. I have to agree that their WAF (wife acceptance factor) is a bit low. Only slightly behind computers.

Haig, I'm glad to see you understand the state of computer audio. Electrostatics are still my favorites, but I can't afford them.

Its going to be difficult to improve computer sound as long as the price of computing is what it is now. Spending another $1,000 for amps and speakers for a computer is hard to justify.

Oh, an analogy to CD oversampling is our video cards' anti-aliasing. It helps makes the "jaggies" go away, but it can never draw the equivalent of a curved line.

RAB

[This message has been edited by RAB (edited 05 January 2000).]

[KvHagedorn]

LAMFDTK.. I should have said 80% of the studios recording classical music use B&W Speakers. Here's my source: http://www.bwspeakers.com/n800/pro.html

There are a couple of factors differentiating the B&W Nautilus 801 and the Yamaha NS10M.. The first would be size.. the 801s weigh 229lbs apiece and are the size of your average washing machine, but a bit taller. The NS10Ms are small bookshelf speakers.
The second factor is cost. $11,000/pr for the 801s, $400/pr for the NS10Ms (I used to have a pair of the Yamahas in the store and liked their sound a lot for the price, but they are not the best speakers in the world. I would put them on my desk and hook them up to my computer in a second though. Awesome performance for a small bookshelf monitor!)

btw guys.. here's a cool receiver to match with your real audio speakers when you get them http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/n...r/pchtinfo.htm

And Bond007.. you won't find the really good stuff online. You guys need to patronize your local audio dealers.. how else are you gonna hear what you're getting?? Geez.. after you pay the shipping to get this junk from some online retailer who doesn't care about you or your needs and find out you don't really like it that much or it won't do what you want it to.. then what?

Nothing makes me madder than having some ****ole come in who went online because he assumed he'd get the best price without giving us a chance and expect us to help him hook it up! Are these guys totally clueless? Usually it doesn't do what they want it to anyhow.

Real audio dealers aren't just a bunch of idiots selling a box. (that's what you get online or at best buy, etc.) They can explain what you need and why you need it, can help you hook it all up right, and help you out whenever you have a problem or question or need service. Buy your stuff from them. It's worth it.

------------------
Kind Regards,

KvH



[This message has been edited by KvHagedorn (edited 06 January 2000).]

[Haig]

Hi Bixler,

Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio format uses a sample rate of 48Khz at upto a sample size of 20 bits. The AC-3 standard also allows for other sampling rates of 32Khz - 44.1Khz but they aren't allowed with DVD. Freq response is 3Hz - 20Khz for the main channels and 3 - 120hz for the LFE channel (that .1 that I talked about in the other thread).

The bit rate is 64 - 448kbps but the typical rate that most production houses use for 5.1 is 384.

The typical bitrate for stereo output in an AC-3 audio stream is 192kbps and the bitrate for a mono audio stream in a dvd title is 96kbps.

Audio streams using the PCM standard has a sampling rate of 48Khz or 96Khz with 16, 20, or 24 bits/sample and a maximum bitrate of 6.14Mbps.

I think that the major players in the industry have agreed that the 96db dynamic range of 16 bits combined with a frequency response of upto 22Khz from 48Khz sampling is more than enough for hi fi.

DVD players are supposed to support all of this but most models subsample the 96khz rate down to 48khz and some don't even use all 20 or 24 bits. First generation dvd players do not pass 96khz to the digital outs like they are supposed to.

Regular audio cd's are limited to 44.1Khz at 16 bits.

"And really, is there a sound card out there that will stay out of the way until you can get the signal into a real stereo?"

Yup, it's an audio card, not a sound card that you need. It's an overkill for most people.

I have a Gina audio card that I use for HD recording. It has 2 ins/8 outs and a SPDIF in/out.

D/A converters are very good (it has one/2 outputs) and no built in amp.

I connect this thru my Quad power amp, into a mackie and out to either my Tannoys or Castle speakers.

I did do an A/B comparison of using the same setup but outputting the audio signal thru my live card (used an unamplified output) and there is a world of a difference between the outputs of the Gina card and the unamplified output of the live card.

What you can do is use a gina audio card or any professional audio card to output directly to your stereo rather than going thru a mixer.

BTW, the live card does not support 5.1 AC3 output. You would have to get an extra adapter for that.

At work, I just received a Guillemot Maxi audio card. It's the one with a built in midi interface and 1/4" in/out audio jacks all in a break out box for hard disk recording. It retails here in Canada for ~$300. Not much better than any output of any sound card.

I also tried Terratec audio card and it's pretty good compared to the Maxi but I still prefer the Gina.

Haig

[This message has been edited by Haig (edited 06 January 2000).]

[Bixler]

Haig: What'r you doing working for a video/graphics hardware Mfr? You've given me enough to chew on for a while! Any links on those audio cards? I do some amateur sound effects mixing/manipulation (check my profile, I do theatre too) and have always been frustrated by the noisiness of the various sound cards I've used. THANKS!

KVH: You described the experience that finally drove me out of the business. And I must confess I see a bit of the same among forum posters too. (Heavy sarcasm here) My favorite customer in the old audio days was the guy who would use up hours of my time on multiple visits, and then give me the opportunity(ahem) to match a warehouse discounter's price for some knockoff stripdown. My standard response was "you get what you pay for, and much of what you're paying for here is ME."

I've given many friends the same advice about their first computer too.

"Get off your ass, drive down to a real store with real people and buy your first one from someone who will answer the phone, and be there if you have a problem"

We've all of us gotten just what we deserve in the way of shoddy service, ignorant salespeople, and nowhere else to go but Wal-mart by chasing a product for the last 1/2 cent discount.

I couldn't agree with you more.