no G800 - time to jump ship - which card?

[Himself]

As for 3DFX being dead, if they are dead, then Matrox has been dead twice as long.
G800 == Rampage, both vapourware, both sounding cool according to information pulled out of the ass of their respective fans.

Dual head isn't really a retail selling feature, it's about business use. If you want that to be a selling feature it has to exist on all cards, who wants to be locked into one card because of one feature? Dumping on NVIDIA for supporting a dual head feature is self defeating if you want support. If you want to sell more G450's, encourage everyone who is doing a dual head card. If it makes the G450 look better, why complain?

TCL is a fundamental part of the rendering process, it exists in all 3D games, it is supported wherever there is 3D. The hardware acceleration is always available and enabled. It may not be showing much improvement with the amount of polygons in today's games, but then again, when it's used, extreme worst case of large fillrate bandwidths, it only drops performance a max of 10% compared to a 1GHz cpu doing the work. At 500MHz-ish, it helps a lot more.

EMBM isn't supported very much or very well, the list of Matrox supported games generally involve minor use of dual head, much more so than EMBM. When EMBM is used, frame rates drop by huge amounts in all cases, no matter what, it's a fillrate killer. If you want EMBM support, you need more fillrate than a G400 has, and you want it used in all cards.

The whole idea of liking a card because it has some feature that the others doesn't is plain stupid. That's the very reason you shouldn't want it, because it means it won't be supported. What you want is a card that has the same features as the rest but does it better.

My $.02

[Alfie]

Get a Matrox g200,then you could wish for a g400
Has anyone seen Godot?
Kind of like the G800!

[paulcs]

"Icestorm, I thought you were a 3dfx fan?"

I think Icestorm likes everybody. We were once playing guess the new Beta Boy. I picked Icestorm because I figured he had eighty-seven computers in his living room.

Not that I'm not guilty of this as well, but frankly, no matter how I try, I just can't keep up with him.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[superfly]

Besides,even if certain features that some cards have(like T&l)aren't being used as widely as they could be(although there are a lot more than 2,Greebe),there is one imediate benefit to having a next generation card.

Fillrate,fillrate and more fillrate(did i mention fillrate already... ).

Let's face it,even if there are a lot of people here that use their G400's for a lot of things not directly related to gaming,it never ceases to amaze me how at least some will go to extraordinary lenghts to overclock their cards to get that little extra performance out of them,including some people who have cooling solutions that are almost half the size of the card!!!(now i wonder who might they be... ).

I'm sure that the overclocks that some perform obviously speed up 2d apps or improve 2d image quality... ,lol.

And the kicker is that a lot of people on these boards are being asked to wait a little while longer for that magical G800 to finally show up,which could very well take anywhere from 6 to 9 months,if we go by the latest information available and what's worse,have no idea what it's capabilities will be.

I think that the wait has lasted long enough(it ended for me almost 5 months ago)

One thing is for sure if the card ships with the specs that were leaked it'll be targeted mostly for oem's not retail,it won't stand a chance against new and updated products from it's competitors.

This is just my opinion of course,but i do believe that the G800's window of oportunity to really be the best card(in speed as well as features)is all but gone.

Anyone here is free to prove me wrong by releasing some actual official specs....

[paulcs]

Wow! Damning a card for performance reasons before it's even announced! That's gotta be a record of some sort. It almost breaks the laws of physics.

And Superfly's from Montreal!!

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Greebe]

LOL Paul you just crack me up!

At least I haven't put a pelt on any of my Gcards!

Lets see, it must be something in my blood that drives me to these insane OCing levels. Just take my Athlon for example... a standard SlotA Athlon 500 running 850. Not fast by some peoples standards (only a 70% increase) and at the time (Last Dec/Jan) it was nice to know what the real fillrate limit was on the G400Max before the rest of the world (including Matrox
But then, I am a beta tester for them with an electrical degree, so my word don't count.

But then again, I really don't see any advantage at all to OCing anything, Honest!

[superfly]

I'm not really passing final jugement on the card until it's real specifications are reveiled.

The conclusion that i came to in the previous post was(and is)based on what little info most of the people here know,it could very well be way off base and having the few people that may very well know something more about it telling us to wait a little while longer because "it'll be worth it" or "you'll be eating crow" just doesn't cut it any more,not after all this time.

This isn't intended as a flame or anything,but the fact is that at least in my case i've been having a blast with my Gf2 64 meg(suitably overclocked to near Geforce 2 ultra levels and running like a dream)for the last 5 months now.

Who knows,if the G800 can offer even more features and is quite a bit faster than what i have right now(at least 50% faster in real world performance)i may yet get it for myself when it finally becomes available.

But trying to convince others to still keep waiting for it when there are other cards available out there that aren't on the cutting edge but can still outrun a G400 max(no matter how overclocked) by twice as much and don't cost a fortune either(Geforce 2 mx,voodoo 5/5500,radion sdr to name a few)is silly.

[Thundrchez]

IMHO, the only logical choice is a Matrox card. Waiting for their new one sucks, but I think it is worth it.

Nvidia = driver chaos. You never know if you should go with the card manufacturer's drivers, or for the generic reference Nvidia drivers, or for leaked reference Nvidia drivers. They might be the fastest sumbitches around these days, but I won't go near them until they keep everything under their control as far as graphics chip, board design & manufacture, and drivers. There are just too many variables when you have a dozen different companies making boards from the same chips.

ATI = sucks. I am daily reminded as to how much they suck by my work computer. If past performance is any indication of future results, the Radeon won't live up to what it could have been.

3dfx = ??? I was real pleased with 3dfx with my voodoo1 & voodoo2, but that was years ago. I haven't seen what they are doing with voodoo4/5, but expect it to be aimed primarily at gaming, and that primarily to get the most fps, not nec. with the best visual quality.

Although my G400 isn't the fastest thing on the planet, it still does my gaming pretty sweet in 1024x768x32 with spectacular video quality. ...Patiently waiting for Matrox's next...

[superfly]

Well...having used this card for some time now,i can honestly say that i have never experienced any major issues nvidia's drivers,official,leaked or beta.

I'm not saying this to make anyone here mad,but as far as i know and with the software that i've tried so far(lots of games and demos,phtoshop,cad,blender,a little 3d studio max on the side),i haven't had any major issues.

It can be hard to follow on the very frenquent driver updates they do but personally,i see that as a benefit not necessarily a drawback,it gives you the option to try quite a few drivers to sometimes solve a particular bug in any given app without having to wait weeks for an official driver.

Regarding the conditions you mentioned in your previous post,does that mean you'll never own an nvidia card???,since they only build the chips and make the reference boards and reference drivers,nothing more.

Regarding the last part of your post,can you actually give me a short list of exactly wich games you can actually play at 1024*768 32bit and,if possible,what kind of framerate you're getting??(max,min,and average).


It is still possible to do it in older games,or games types that aren't fps dependant(eg.rts ones)

[Thundrchez]

I've tried nvidia cards before. I thought so much of them, I sold them all. Nvidia drivers do not work with w95osr2.5 even if everything is setup right. Their video quality makes compromises. Also, with so many third party manufacturers, you are just rolling the dice to see what you will actually get at very high resolution 2D.

I am an Unreal Tournament addict. I'm running UT in 1024x768x32 with 32 bit Z buffer. Using the built in UT timedemo stats, for different levels I will get average fps of 30-40fps, and the min fps will be around 10-15 fps when things are really dicey. I forget what the max fps is, but I don't consider that a useful stat for 3d gaming. It is painful when the action gets down to 10fps, but most levels have min fps around 15.

FYI, my PC is an Abit KT7, T'bird 800 oc'd to 880, 384MB sdram, Matrox G400 (vanilla) 32MB dualhead, Diamond Monster Sound MX300, win95osr2.5 (no ie4), directx8.

[frankymail]

Hey guys,
How can you get good performance with a G400MAX??? I have a Pentium III 750 O/C 1000 on a CUSL2 with 256 MB SDRAM and a G400 DH 32 MB O/C 175core/233mem and I tell you, things can get ugly: In Q3A at 1024x768x32bits with everything maxed, I get at best OK performances (30FPS on Demo001). I can't even think on playing UT at anything more than 800x600x32bits with everything on... and it struggles with NOLF, Deus Ex and Ground Control at 800x600x32bits, sometimes dropping in the 15-20 FPS. I'm using Matrox Latest drivers (neither slower or faster than the precious' ones), DX 7. The only thing that plays smoothly at 1024x768x32bits w/EMBM is Expendable. However, I could have bought a GeForce DDR or radeon DDR for $150 US, but I chose to stick with my G400, as I have seen the 2D quality of the GeForce (My Sony G400 monitor and my eyes deserve better...). I just VERY EAGER to get a G800.............

Francis Beausejour
Frankymail@yahoo.com

----------------------------------------
- Intel P3 1GHz Retail
- Asus CUSL2-M
- 256 MB TinyBGA (2 DIMMs)
- Matrox Millennium G400 DH 32 MB O/C 175/233
- Sony G400 + Sony 210GS
- Dual Quantum Fireball LM Plus 15 GB
- Teac W54E CD-RW + Panasonic 8X DVD-ROM
- Sound Blaster Live! Value
- 3Dfx VoodooTV 200 (Nov. 8TH 2000)
Francis: 19/Male/5'8"/155Lbs/light blue eyes/dark auburn hair/loves SKA+punk+Hard/Software... just joking, I'm not THAT desperate (again, Marie-Josée, if you ever happen to read this (like THAT could happen...), I'm just joking and I REALLY, REEEAAALLLLLYYY love you!))

[frankymail]

And BTW, everyone that lives in Quebec, Canada, near Montreal (I mean :a less than 2 hour drive to montreal) should head to www.landatabase.com and enter their coordinates (names, email and city), because I am the only Quebec guy who actually registered, and I REALLY like lan parties, but being less than 40 SUCKS BIG TIME!!! So, anyone interested, go to the wen site and register.

Planning to do a >200 lan party with sponsors and lots of prizes this spring...


Francis Beausejour
Frankymail@yahoo.com

----------------------------------------
- Intel P3 1GHz Retail
- Asus CUSL2-M
- 256 MB TinyBGA (2 DIMMs)
- Matrox Millennium G400 DH 32 MB O/C 175/233
- Sony G400 + Sony 210GS
- Dual Quantum Fireball LM Plus 15 GB
- Teac W54E CD-RW + Panasonic 8X DVD-ROM
- Sound Blaster Live! Value
- 3Dfx VoodooTV 200 (Nov. 8TH 2000)
Francis: 19/Male/5'8"/155Lbs/light blue eyes/dark auburn hair/loves SKA+punk+Hard/Software... just joking, I'm not THAT desperate (again, Marie-Josée, if you ever happen to read this (like THAT could happen...), I'm just joking and I REALLY, REEEAAALLLLLYYY love you!))

[Jorden]

I wish someone would nuclear blast everyone who has no patience and goes of to another card "because the G800 hasn't shown its face yet" ... so we can have some peace of mind and you sleep better

The other card? Try an S3 Trio V64+, if you want something new. Sporting 2Mb of memory, 2D only and if you need 3D, there's Voodoo's a plenty out there which still lived through your nuclear blast

Jord.

Edit: As seen below, there's no need to leave these fori, if you can help other wanderers-on without a Matrox card, we're extremely happy. Sorry for my outburst above

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 01 December 2000).]

[mathew]

Well I went for the GTS 2 64 Great card very very fast.Hey before all you guys start to send streaking fireballs of damnation down on me with great vengence I just want to say this.

I have been using Matrox products for years and believe them to have the very best build quality of all the graphics cards.Driver support is good and they have probably been the most innovative of all the video card manufactures. BUT.........

They just need to get their new cards out quicker and I aint talking nVIDIA quick but at least one a year,I really wanted to stay with Matrox but I am the sort of guy that likes to keep up with the latest software and it appears that Matrox does not have the resources to do this:[

G800 sounds like a great card from all the rumours that we hear but I cannot wait on some rumour mill I needed the card this year not the end of next year :[

So I must stop this ranting and get on with what I wanted to say in this post

My recommendation would have to be nVidia drivers have matured and the Quality of the 2D and 3D image is as good as the G400 Max imho.

Price is good too you can get a GTS2 32Mb card for about the same price as the G400 Max is new and the card will simply blow the Max out of the water in all situations and they clock very very well.

My card will clock to 400 Mem and 240 Chip now thats fast:]

I got hold of my Abit GTS 2 64Mb card for £40.00 more than I had to pay for my G400Max a year ago so I ain't disapointed.

Regards Matt :]

[superfly]

Jorden,like everything else in life,patience has limits.

I know that there are at least a few people here that will only use matrox cards and will never consider anything else,no matter how good it might actually be,but i'm not one of them.

I can wait a reasonable amount of time for any given product to actually show up,but as far as the G800 is/was concerned,the delays were(and still are unfortunately)unacceptable.

You may be willing to wait this long also because you could very well know what the G800 is all about in terms of features and performance expectations,but unfortunately that isn't the case with almost every one else here.