Haig's answers and my reply about the PD5 G200 beta

[Manifest]

Elie - LightHeaded

As sad as it is for me to say it, it looks like the line of customer satisfaction for matrox ties in with those that have and those that have not. Both of you have so much admitted to being in the beta, and because of this support from matrox you are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. For the reset of us, the current answer of soon or wait a bit longer after a year of waiting is unacceptable.

There seems a distinct conflict of interest here in having the beta testers reply to these messages, they are mostly meant for matrox. Replying and defending the, as Whisper put it “The Matrox Lie” only protects your current status with matrox.


[This message has been edited by Manifest (edited 06-29-99).]

[Joel]

Hey Manifest,

For the most part you are an ****OLE. We have tried numerous times to tell you and other that things are getting better for the G200. That is not “The Matrox Lie” it is the truth as we see it in our testing. And if you are the Network Engineer that you claim to be, then I'm sure you know about NDAs and the limits they can put on a person. I for one will not do anything to violate my NDA because I feel that what I am doing is very important, more so since I have a SS7 based system.

Joel

HAVE A NICE DAY! IT'S ONLY A GRAPHICS CARD FOR GOD SAKE


[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 06-29-99).]

[Manifest]

Joel

I knew that opinions are like a**holes, but never did I believe that it could turn me into one. Messages like yours exemplify my ideas, but I can determine no other worth in it.

[Arron]

Oh rubbish! There was me thinking I might go for a while without getting all het up...

Manifest, you have changed your arguments over and over. Sure they've always followed the same theme. But twisting your arguments with every post has just made it more and more of a whine.

There are several factors at work here:
1. An open beta testing is one of the LEAST reliable ways of getting good information back (anyone who has been involved in a major software release can begin to guess at the ISO 9000 nightmare it can create )
2. Open beta tests tend to flood-fill error reports logs which then take longer to sift through to find unique errors (How many 'Quake 2 only gets 23FPS' error reports do you think these guys want?)
3. Private beta testing is almost infinitely superior, you get tight control over who, what, where, when and how.
4. Haig appears to have made an excellent choice of testers, as someone who has been coming to this BBS (thanks Ant) for over a year I happily support his choice.

So far everything you have come out with has been opinion and a long way from the facts. I don't want PD5 until it's ready.

I am not a beta tester for Matrox. I have a G200 that I'd like OpenGL for. The last card I bought was an ATI.

HELP! HELP! HELP! ANT! CLOSE THIS ONE TOO! MY BLOOD PRESSURE IS GOING SKYWARDS!

[Manifest]

Arron

With new replies come new ideas, I have tried to always keep in with the same theme. It was suggested that matrox have both a private and an open beta, no timeframe was discussed for this or any other release of information. Matrox has already done this successfully with the 4.51 and OGL beta 2, and also with OGL beta 1. The idea of an open beta is proven, and not much more strain on a support department then a regular release. Also my discussion is not just focused on PD5 but can be applied to PD6 or whatever is next in development.

Hope your blood pressure goes down, since I am sure that this thread will be closed soon.

[Arron]

In Matrox's case, open beta testing was an utter failure. They have been crucified for it ever since. Blimey, you're even doing it now - the reason you're after PD5 or whatever is for OpenGL because you're not happy with the open beta.

Matrox were getting flak no matter what they did. It's interesting to note that most of the current beta testers gave Matrox as much flak as anyone else. Matrox have chosen the best possible route which is privately selected (hand picked even) testers.

Open beta testing certainly does not work. If you don't beleive me, try asking Haig for an unedited bug report for the beta 2 ICD. I don't work for Matrox, nor have I ever seen their bug reports, but I'd put money on the following:

1. That they got several thousand duplicate reports of every obvious error, all written in a different way so that you can't sort them automatically.
2. That after the first three weeks it was nigh on impossible to get decent quality bug reports because none of the testers (i.e. the public) had any incentive to continue reporting/testing.
3. That at least half of the bug reports were close to being flames
4. That at least half of the bug reports were about Quake not being fast enough.

As someone who has just written a test strategy for a multi-million pound software roll-out, I would be happy to point my customer at this forum if they ever asked why I advise against public betas.

[Jorden]

Ant, close this thread NOW
Seal it with a chain, and anchor it in deep water 10 miles south of Lightship 'The Lighter' ....

That's all I have to say.

Jorden.

[Manifest]

Arron

Thanks for the reply, and you have valid points. I would also like to reiterate a couple of mine.

My statement is that matrox could have both a closed beta first, during and after, AND they could support an open beta. It is not as if matrox would be deprived of any valuable information since they still have the closed beta testers to interact with. Your post makes it seem as if it is an either or proposition.

The only issue that I have with the past matrox open beta is the lack of "official" information, and the extremely long timeframe since that beta.

[glenbrook1998]

No sorry Joel the only a-s-s-h-o-l-e in here is you, not Manifest as you so professionally claimed. Is it that kind of attitude that qualifies you to be one of the beta-boyz? I cannot even imagine your comprehensive bug report sheet. I would not even venture to see your "credentials." WOW, that is tech talk from a tech guy like yourself.

The point the non-beta-boyz are trying to make here is that more info can be collected from more users with different systems than from 10 users who overclock this and tweak that, and blah blah blah. The G200 is as worthless on ordinary systems as it is on your powerhouse overclocked Celeron 266 @ 504 supercooled liquid nitrogen beast. I don't think testing it on your system alone will prove to be stable on my lowly P233 or anyone else's setup.

Look at Microsoft with their offering of Windows 200 beta3 to everone and their mother! Why, because their stupid, or because they want a stable product across the board? Hmmm, common sense would agree with the later. Why can't Haig see that? Why this buddy system? This is a business dammit not a high school with cliques.

Our problem with you beta-boyz is this elitist sort of attidude that all of a sudden you've become important and worth something. Once critics of Matrox you all now are suck-up brown-nosers! Matrox can do no wrong! Yeah, the drivers are awesome, as your reports have claimed. RIGHT!

I heard that the drivers are not stable and still offer subpar performance. Not much better than opengl icd beta2. All we get from you guys is real soon, real real soon, their good. DUH! Thanks but no thanks.

Haig, what is your reasoning in having this Matrox conspiracy beta program. Why do you think that the average user like myself is not capable of sending an email to Matrox explaining the problems I am having with the beta drivers? Am I that much of a moron? I guess so, I shelled out for the G200 didn't I? Is this Matrox's attempt to shut up their most feared critics hoping to spur the G400 sales?

I am insulted by your childish behavior Haig, and that of Matrox who agreed to this exclusive limited beta program. We all are stuck with this card, all in the same boat, all fearful that these drivers are crap as usual and that the next driver release will be for Windows 2004.

Matrox continues to be a let down across the board. Their public relations as evidenced by these actions advertise their lack of devotion and customer relations, lack of sincerity, lack of true technical know-how.
Incompetent.

Ya go ahead and censore this message, and put a lock on it like you did the other thread. Beta-boyz in control baby! They OWN!

[Arron]

That's the whole point. If you are going to do open betas you need PR people who are technically aware and constantly on the ball. People don't accept 'no support for beta software' in licenses, they still call technical support. If the software knackers things up, they blame the company anyway, even if they accepted a licenses agreement.

Most of all, especially in the computer trade, people have very little patience. They want to know why a fix isn't available 5 days after they reported a problem, they don't understand that their problem is at the bottom of a 10,000 entry long spreadsheet and that it might take a month before anyone reads it, let alone fixes it.

The only argument for open beta testing is if you have enormous resources available to deal with it, which is normally only the case if your software is a mission critical component that will cause problems with other systems if it is missing.

[SteveC]

Can I just add that Matrox are not the only people in the world that do private betas? I've tested for Powerquest (partition magic people) and they are private, IOMega were too. And others. Where I work here, we do beta runs with possible and current clients - hell we even charge them for the priviledge! So Matrox are in no way unusual in this testing method.

------------------
Cheers,
Steve
It's Only A Graphics Card!
(But a damn good 'un!)

[Manifest]

Arron

Thanks again for your reply, but I just do not believe it. Many large and small companies have successfully had open beta programs. I could start a list, but that would not matter. I appreciate the comments & opinions and I encourage others to join in with civil conversations of their own.

[Haig]

Hi Manifest,

This will be my last post on this thread. Hopefully, it can clarify a few items.

"Yes, and this method seems to have excluded a large part of the matrox community with G200 cards."

Like I said, nobody knows who they are or how many they are nor does anyone know what their crudentials are.

"On the quote “We, the users of your product, are suffering and in need a bit of attention”, it refers to the lack of official word from matrox on driver issues such as this. It also means that we are asking for help from matrox on the issue. As manager
of tech support you deal with non-technical people every day. These people express themselves differently. One of the
qualities a tech support manager searches for in their employees are those that can bridge the gap between tech and ordinary people. Ordinary people ask for help, when something they think shoudl work doesn’t. They then go to those that can help them. Your are in that position, and therefore one of the correct people to answer this and some of the other
messages of this type."

If you are looking for some kind of an official voice from Matrox to tell you guys what is going on, most people here already know that this is not me nor anyone else in Tech Supp. The moderators have their internal contacts that deal with this.

"A open beta is not necessarily a management nightmare."

It sure is when all reports have to get reproduced before gettng entered. Even a staff of a hundred soley for reproducing all of their reports wouldn't be enough.

"...Matrox should release all pertinent information concerning the drivers, not the beta testers."

All I see them doing is ackowledging if a bug has been fixed or not along with the drivers coming out soon.

If you or anyone else would rather hear it from a Matrox employee, just call us.

Glenbrook, I'll keep my comments about you to myself for now.

You obviously haven't read what I have been saying. Comparing MS resources to any other manufacturer is complete nonsense.

"Why do you think that the average user like
myself is not capable of sending an email to Matrox explaining the problems I am having with the beta drivers?"

PD 4.5x was released as beta. Nobody is stopping anyone from reporting bugs to us. So you tell me, where are you or anyone else sending the bugs?

Don't tell me they are posting it on this forum.

Haig

[Manifest]

Haig

Thank you again for your comments. I appreciate the insights that you have given. If you are not the one who should receive information like this please forward it to the appropriate representatives. I understand that you are only one part of matrox, but you are the only one that has responded so far.

[glenbrook1998]

Haig, real quick? I did email Matrox on the bugs in PD 4.5 about 6 months ago on many occasions Did I get any help? NO! Did I even get a reply? NO! Again, user cries falling on Matrox's deaf ears.

You are obviously doing a great job as tech support manager there. Thanks but no thanks! Please do not try to expand your role into public relations.

If you or anyone cannot take a little criticism for a lot of Matrox lies then who will? Me? I still have the G200 box and I sure as hell can read English.

Diamond offers an exchange/upgrade program for incompatable hardware. Matrox offeres us the beta-boyz! WOW! I can't wait for beta-boyz v2.0!