Asus P3B-F+ PIII 450+Micron PC133 Memory means studdering 3D graphics.

[GoKhoo]

Just jumped on looking for info on MB and memory. Ordered myself the Abit BE6 tonight and am wondering if the PC133 memory is worth it. According to DMan, it's not. Hey, if the PC100 stuff is going to do the same, I don't want to spend the extra cash I don't have. Can anyone help me out with this problem?

[Jammrock]

DMan,

Be carefull what you say, it may come back to bite you.

"Is it just me, or are you people stupid?"
...Since I am an A+ certified computer technician with over 2 years of corporate IT expirience I doubt I fall into this catagory (especially hardware).

"First, your P3B-F aint gonna be worth shit when coppermine comes (.18 micron). Just becuase your mobo has the 133 Mhz FSB speed, doesn't mean you could run at that speed."
...You are very incorrect. First off the Camino will not be released until November at the soonest (that is over 3 months away which is half a component life cycle away). Initially the Camino chipset will be designed for the Coppermine PIII's, which will be VERY expensive. This means that unless you are rich your old BX motherboard is staying around for a while. And although the board is not designed for 133 MHz, that does not mean it cannot stabily run at 133 MHz (I know that your BH6 may not make it, but I have not heard of a P3B-F that can't make it).

"any cid card you have will totally crash, because it's AGP bus would be running at 87n Mhz, muhc over the spec 66 Mhz."
...Yes and no. I have a Voodoo3 currently in my computer and it cannot handle the high bus speeds. Matrox cards on the other hand usually run perfectly fine at higher bus speeds. Sometimes they need a little cooling, but normally they work fine. Just look around the forums and you will see several people running their Matrox cards at 87 MHz AGP bus.

"Basically, you should've gotten PC100 and a cheaper BX baord (BH6 is awesome), because the PC100 SDRAM would've hit 129 or anything below that and the P3B-F doesn't give you shit."
...Okay, and you know what about motherboards? The BH6 is a cheap barebone motherboard, true, but is not the best. It has some good overclocker options, but for a few more bucks the BE6 and P3B-F does MUCH more and are much more stable. Just for reference I have had 2 BH6 boards die on me before. And since the first 2 generations of Athlon motherboards will use PC133 HSDRAM and a PC133 SDRAM Camino motherboard is being "evaluated" at Intel right now, PC133 is the way to go if you are buying RAM right now. The only sane reason to buy PC100 RAM right now is if you cannot afford PC133 HSDRAM.

"Maybe one more PCI slot, but what the hell do you need 6 PCI slots for?!? 5 is enough right now. I guess I just fail you see your logic here. The PIII 450 will overclock just as good on most other "overclocking" boards (I mentioned two above)"
...Once again you show your lack of knowledge of motherboards and computer hardware in general. If you were a true computer tech you would know that the P3B-F is a PC99 compatible motherboard and that ALL PC99 standard motherboard have 6 PCI slots and NO (as in ZERO) ISA slots. And since the P3B-F is designed to be a PC99 compatible motherboard (it does have 2 legacy designs though) it has 6 PCI slots. Very simple logic here. As for not needing 6 PCI slots, let's go down the list:
Slot 1 = Sound Card
Slot 2 = Network Card
Slot 3 = Modem
Slot 4 = SCSI card
Slot 5 = MPEG Decoder board
Slot 6 = TV Tuner
Slot 7 = 3D Accelerator (yes there are people that still use them).
Slot 8 = Digital I/O cards (for us SB Live! users)
etc...

As you can see, ASUS is well ahead of the game. And if you read my earlier post you would have realized that the P3B-F has the most tweakable BIOS on the market (or at least that I have ever seen) and is very stable at 133 MHz, which makes it a very viable choice for people who want to overclock now, instead of 9 months from now when we can afford a PIII/Camino and/or an Athlon computer.

Jammrock

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PIII 540 (120 MHz x 4.5 - 540), 256 MB PC133 SDRAM, ASUS P3B-F, Winblows 98 SuckyEdition, 18 GB WD Expert HDD, Encore 6x DVD w/ Dxr3 decoder, (TEMPORARY!!!) Voodoo 3 2000 @ 175 MHz which will be replaced by a Matrox G400 MAX, Sound Blaster Live! full retail, MAG DX715T 17

[DMan]

Okay, I stand corrected (although I do know this stuff, I just think I didn't think it out). What i was MEANING to say was that the P3B-F just isn't the latest and greatest mobo, and doesn't have the 1/2 AGP clock divider (although the 1/4 PCI is there).

PC133 Memory is a big question mark right now. I just think that I'd rather have Rambus (if I could buy it at the time I but and 820 board, because yields are low and costly right now). PC133 memory MAY POSSIBLY be used, although Chipzilla is currently evaluating it. They have had pressure from big OEMs concerning the actual availability of RDRAM.

The reason I said the BH6 was to give a good board that would hold him off until he could get a nice Camino "overclockers" board, and not blow a lot of cash on two mobos. Not everyone has money for everything. I myself have the BX6 ver2, BH6, P3B-F, BE6, BP6 (this thing is cool), P2B-F, and the 6BA+ sitting in the room I typing in. I do reviews for them (get them for free :O), and I believe the SOYO 6BA+ is the best of them all for it's tweakablility.

As far as the AGP bus running at 88 Mhz, it's anotherr mysterey. Most cards of this generation (V3, G400, TNT2)run so fast already, that the increase in AGP speeds can SERIOUSLY effect them, causing major heat probs. I cant run my PIII 450 over 123 Mhz FSB, because the TNT2 crashes, big time. Suprisingly enough, my old Savage3D card does not. I dont know about the G400 series, but I think they will react the same.

Concerning your use of slots. This is the ammusing part. Here's how I go
AGP=TNT2 (waiting for MAX like everyone)
PCI 1=Vortex 2 soundcard
PCI 2=Rainbow Runner G-series
PCI 3=Network Card
PCI 4=free
PCI 5=free
ISA 1=free
I can see the use of the SCSI, but why a modem WITH a network card? 56k probablty wouldn't be neccessary with a LAN ISDN, t1, t3, whatever. AND A FRIGGIN DVD DECODER?!?!?! WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED THAT FOR WITH A 540 Mhz PII CPU AND 256mb OF RAM?!!? it's not like you're gonna be doing anything else with the computer (w/ v3 2000 right now) while you watch a movie, leaving the need of a decoder card. I bet you could even multitask with the PIII and a software decoder anyway. As for the digital I/O card, when I did have the SB Live (very shortly, EAX sucks compared to A3D 2.0), the digital i/o card was in the last slot, an ISA slot which I didn't use.

I know about PC99 specs, but I dont some people still have ISA devices too. Before I got SDSL on my network (of 3, 2 were just recently purchased for my family and wanted to share fast connect to internet), my computer used a 3com/USR 56k internal Fax, which is ONLY ISA. It's also still the best internal 56k modem available (DEATH TO THE WINMODEM!!!!)

Hope this helps clear some things up. And hey jammrock, it's nice to meet someone who knows something about this field too. You'd be surprised how many people know absoulutley shit about computer hardware. If you wanna drop me a line (ICQ UIN# 15948751), I'd be happy to talk stuff with you. I appreciate you challanging me, because it's a challange for me to come up with logical rebuttals to support my views. I'll also admit that it was 12:30 in the morning and I was quite tired when I wrote m first post. Must have been tired....I usually make a lot more sense.

[cpld005]

Everything is fine now, I took Jammrock's advice and it worked. No more studdering and can run the board at 124FSB without a hiccup on the card at all (although I think the Peltier I put on it helped that out alot).

[Jammrock]

Dman,

hehehe...nothing like a good debate to keep you awake during a slow day at the office. My UIN: 4704110...and guess what, my nickname is Jammrock on ICQ, too. I love having a nick not used by anyone else on the web (which is rather hard to pull off).

I keep my Dxr3 because I don't have any software DVD palyers and don't really care to get any. The DVD Decoder keeps the CPU usage down and looks damn good, so I am happy as can be.

I also use a true modem, aka ISA, because here in KC, ADSL and Cable are just barely getting to market so i need the 56k to play my EverQuest DAMN IT!!!! I am going to wait for Sprint's ION to come out in December, because it rules (8 Mb down, 1 Mb up at $100 vs. 6 Mb down and 1 Mb up for the $139 a month premium ma bell ADSL, plus ION gives you the ISP, 2 lines, local and long distance calls, email...).

I also run a Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Theater 5.1, so I actually use my digital I/O card. As for 3D audio...my brother has a Diamond Monster MX300, it is nice, but I think that once the EAX 2.0 games start hitting you will not be able to notice the difference. And then when EAX 3.0 comes out the SB Live! will have 4 channel HRTF's vs 2 Channel for the Vortex 2 API. The live! is just a better all around purchase in my opinion.

Chipzilla may be big, but if they recieve no support from the memory community they will get screwed. Consider this: I am a consumer in November looking for a new "high-end" computer. I have 2 options, an Intel "coppermine" PIII based computer and an AMD Athlon based computer. Let's say that the Athlon (since they really are having good yields) and the PIII cost the exact same for the same speed CPU, and they will perform about the same. Now we go to motherboards...Intel 820 motherboards from Abit, ASUS or Soyo will cost about $150 since it is a brand new technology. By this point the Athlon motherboards are readily avaiable and cost about the same. Now we go to RAM...Mr. Joe User finds out that to use his Intel system he needs to buy 128 MB of RamBus RAM, which costs him $250 since yields are so low AND it is a new technology. He then finds out that he can buy PC133 HSDRAM for $150 for an Athlon system. Same performance, lower price = Mr. Joe User now has an Athlon system. PC133 is not going to die any time soon (in PC standard time). Intel is being forced to support it whether they want to or not. They just won't admit it.

Jammrock

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PIII 540 (120 MHz x 4.5 - 540), 256 MB PC133 SDRAM, ASUS P3B-F, Winblows 98 SuckyEdition, 18 GB WD Expert HDD, Encore 6x DVD w/ Dxr3 decoder, (TEMPORARY!!!) Voodoo 3 2000 @ 175 MHz which will be replaced by a Matrox G400 MAX, Sound Blaster Live! full retail, MAG DX715T 17

[Guyver]

AGP - 89Mhz here - no probs - even running AGP2X without hangups.

ABIT BE6, PIII450

AGP - Mystique G200
PCI1 - Empty
PCI2 - Adaptec AHA-2940UW (new bios available folks)
PCI3 - SBLive! Value
PCI4 - Empty
PCI5 - Empty
ISA1 - Empty

2.00 Volts Core, 133FSB - 2/3 AGP, 1/4 PCI..

Modem - US Robotics 56K Voice Faxmodem Pro (USB)
Printer - HP 895CXi (USB)

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Running an ABIT BE6, PIII-450 @ 600Mhz, 128MB (128x1) PC133HSDRAM (running @ 133), Matrox Mystique G200 8MB, SBLive! Value, Adaptec AHA-2940UW (Dual Channel)
All kinds of other SCSI and ATAPI goodies....
-------------
Waiting for my G400Max Impatiently, increasing system performance to give it a good home.....

[DMan]

Yes, I see about RAMBUS, and what you think PC133 will do. It makes sense, but right now, the support for Athalon is minimal, and not many mainboards will be produced as for the Chipzilla i820 boards. I only know of FIC and ASUS signing on for Athalon mobos now, which isn't much, and i like abit (i've had a good history with 'em).

oh, EAX is at the end of it's lfiespan, because it's actually only about 200 different reverb patterns, and a programmer chooses one for each sitution (like in a small vent, you would have a lot of fast reverbs, while in a big hall, you would have fewer, longer reverbs) EAX 3.0 will just be extensions of the the reverbs, but it's a lot easier to program than A3D 2.0. If you note, A3D 2 uses an advanced "wavetracting" model to see where the sound goes and trace what it would do. And i dont own the MX300, because I have this anti-Diamond thing going after I went through THREE V550 cards that ****ed themselves up and didn't work.

I actually use the Xitel Storm Platinum, which has S/PDIF out via fiber optic (those cables LOOK SO DAMN COOL!!!) to my stereo. I use it for software DVD as well as my computer speakers. I just feel that my 5.1 speaker sys from Klepch (spelling?) and the Kenwood reciever sounds better than any cambridge system. I even got the whole stereo for 250 dollars on Onsale.com, only 150 more for the speakers. They just sound so damn good.

DMan

P.S. I too was on an EverSMACK junket, but I was forced out by the fact that my entire system was shafted when i put in WIN98 Shitty Edition. Took me a week to get everything going, and since I had gotten eversmack from a buddy, as well as a hack, I couldn't play no more...but i suggest alcohol if you REALLY want to find something else to do

[Jammrock]

HRTF's is a form of wavetracing. True, EAX uses a lot of reverb, but that is only to change the overall "eviroment" of the sound. EAX 2/3 uses HRTF's to position the sounds indepently in 3D. It works best when using 4 Speaker mode, decent in 2 Speaker and pretty good with headphones. So basically EAX 2/3 will have just as advanced sound positioning and reverb affects as A3D 2. Different strokes for different folks.

Jammrock

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PIII 540 (120 MHz x 4.5 - 540), 256 MB PC133 SDRAM, ASUS P3B-F, Winblows 98 SuckyEdition, 18 GB WD Expert HDD, Encore 6x DVD w/ Dxr3 decoder, (TEMPORARY!!!) Voodoo 3 2000 @ 175 MHz which will be replaced by a Matrox G400 MAX, Sound Blaster Live! full retail, MAG DX715T 17

[mikehdft]

EAX is dead? What planet are you from? A hardware reviewer?

I'm not a big fan of Microsoft, But they have aready announced that they are supporting EAX in DX8. So if A3D is better why isn't MS supporting it? I predict that all sound cards will have to support EAX, because the games will be written for it. If you read about it on their webpage, they talk about EAX being open, but there are some things that only the SB live's hardware can do, and that won't be open.

I have two CD-roms in my system and tested the difference between analog and digital input to the card. The sound card was hooked to a Pioneer VSX-456 Dolby Prologic surround sound receiver with Cerwin-Vega! 5+1 surround sound speakers. The DAC on the SB Live is much better. The sound was cleaner, crisper, the surround effect was greater, and I was able to achieve higher volume levels without distortion. I enjoy music along with games.




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Mike H. Watercooled K6-2 @ 500mhz Epox EP-MVP3G Rev. 1.0 128mb PC100 Marvel G-200 16mb SDRAM

[mikehdft]

I am not saying that EAX is better because I don't have a card capable of A3D2 to compare. I was just saying that MS is going to include it in DX8 so it can't be dead cause DX8 won't be out till next summer.
Just because MS uses it deosn't make it better!

Mike H.

[DMan]

mike, I really do mean it when I say EAX is tworads the end of it's life and Creative is trying to push the mule as far as it can go before it dies. I truly mean that EAX uses older reverb technology, which cant compare to the quality of A3D 2.0.

If you've ever played HL with A3D 2.0 and EAX with 2 or 4 speakers or headphones, or a stereo in my case, you'd really see, uh, HEAR the difference. It just sound more realistic. The reason you just dont see A3D 2 support all aruond is that EAX is just easier to program in. Most games that are "quality" (AMEN the Awakening, Q3, UT, and TF2 come to mind) will support A3D 2.0, just because of it's superiority.

If you bought the SB Live! for EAX, i kinda hate to say this, but you believed the Creative hype, and hype from CL is some of the biggest in the business (aside from Apple)

[Jammrock]

Dman,

So the debate continues. First off, with both Creative Labs and Microsoft supporting EAX, I highly doubt that EAX is going to die any time soon. The EAX vs. A3D battle is going to end up the same way the D3D vs. Glide battle has. Glide is cool, like A3D, but it is a proprietary technology that is not backed by "the Really Big Guns."

You mentioned Half Life as your example of why A3D will beat out EAX. I admit, HL sounds way better on an A3D 2.0 card, but then again, Sierra spent a lot of time programming the A3D support (Aureal used HL as it's flagship product to 'show the world' how good A3D 2.0 is, so it of course rocks) and the EAX was more of an afterthought. Plus HL uses A3D 2.0 and EAX 1.0 so you are really comparing apples to seedlings here.

As for support of "quality games," check out the Sound Blaster Live web page at http://www.soundblaster.com/eaudio/games/ (as for Quake 3 support, John Carmack said that currently 3D audio was not a priority and has not been implemented, but if he ever did decide to support 3D audio he would choose A3D because it is NT compatible...he never announce actual support for any 3D audio technology though).

Dman, when an actual game comes out with A3D 2.0 AND EAX 2.0 we can pool our resources together and see which is better in real life. Until then, it is all words man, but EAX has all the money, and you know what makes the world go round...

Jammrock

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PIII 540 (120 MHz x 4.5 - 540), 256 MB PC133 SDRAM, ASUS P3B-F, Winblows 98 SuckyEdition, 18 GB WD Expert HDD, Encore 6x DVD w/ Dxr3 decoder, (TEMPORARY!!!) Voodoo 3 2000 @ 175 MHz which will be replaced by a Matrox G400 MAX, Sound Blaster Live! full retail, MAG DX715T 17

[DMan]

I have no idea how we got to talking about 3D Audio Techs.... As for DX8, DX7 HASN'T EVEN HIT THE STREETS! By the time DX8 is publically avaulable, we will have K9 and Merced out of our ears, 1 GB or RAM (I actually have that right now), and EAX 5.4 and A3D 4.0.

A3D 2.0 is still in it's infancy, as well as the entire 3D audio market. And in my mind, A3D's better technology basis and just sounding better makes it a shoe in versus EAX 1.0, 2.0, 2.1, etc.

EAX came to be as an "easy" 3D audio solution, and after the fad dies down, we'll all see that devolpers will see what really works, and does it right.

Games have been constantly moving tworad more realism, and reverbs, no matter how many Creative can throw, just wont work very well much longer......just think how a another couple weeks programming A3D 2.0 could make your game sound better....

[Jammrock]

Apparently Dman, you have not been reading my posts entirely (boy this is fun). HRTF'S IS THE SAME 3D POSITIONAL AUDIO TECHNOLOGY THAT BOTH THE A3D 2.x AND EAX 2.x USE. Originally EAX 1.0 did not support HRTF's, but as of 2.0 it does. This means that anything A3D can do EAX can do too. The ONLY difference is in the API. EAX is easy as hell to code for and A3D isn't.

Reverb was an EAX 1.0 thing designed so Creative labs could get their foot in the door. Now that EAX 2.0 is out and 3.0 is on its way there is no difference in the 3D positional capabilities of A3D 2.x and EAX 2.x. NONE. Everything the Aureal cards can do the SB Live! cards can do and vise versa. Obstruction, occulsions, full 3D positional ranges (X, Y AND Z plane), reverb, seperate sound sources, etc... The only thing that the Aureal cards do better is 2 speaker 3D, mainly because the SB Live! is designed around a 4 speaker system. That's it!!! So stop saying that the ONLY thing that the SB Live! and EAX can do is REVERB, because that is not TRUE. Sheesh.

Jammrock

PS - DX7 comes out 3rd or 4th quarter this year and DX8 will be out mid to late next year (Farenheit technology, muahahahaha).

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PIII 540 (120 MHz x 4.5 - 540), 256 MB PC133 SDRAM, ASUS P3B-F, Winblows 98 SuckyEdition, 18 GB WD Expert HDD, Encore 6x DVD w/ Dxr3 decoder, (TEMPORARY!!!) Voodoo 3 2000 @ 175 MHz which will be replaced by a Matrox G400 MAX, Sound Blaster Live! full retail, MAG DX715T 17

[MidiSax]

slot usage:

AGP:g200
pci1:Voodoo2
Pci2:fireport40 scsi
pci3:Event Layla pro souncard
pci4:Event Gina pro soundcard
pci5:3com video capture card

USB: Joystick and ethernet adapter

Please dont say things like "nobody needs that many pci slots" You meake me feel like a freak, like some sort of twisted malformance.

MAD? thats what they called me at masters & johnson BUT I'LL SHOW THEM!!!