Good bye, cruel Matrox.......

[IceStorm]

Dennis1, here's a clue:

Epic's OWN DEVELOPERS have admitted that GLide UT/Unreal will be faster than D3D or *cough* OpenGL barely supported *cough*, and have been saying this for quite awhile now. UT/Unreal are GLide games, born and bred, they better run faster than D3D, all other things being equal.

Will D3D get better? Yes. Will it ever match GLide, all other things being equal? No. It won't happen, so stop dreaming that it will. If you want the flat-out fastest frame rate for it, get a 3dfx card.

The reason I said, "maybe TNT2Ultra" is because the TNT2Ultra apparently handles other games (not UT) with more aplomb than the MAX, and looks better than 3dfx's parts. Q3A comes to mind...

On the bright side, my precaching time for UT (V2 and MAX) is on the order of a few seconds. TNT users are saying theirs is a minute or so. Apparently something's amiss on the TNT series.

I agree completely with Kruzin. If all I wanted to do was play games, I would have bought a V3-3000 a long time ago. As I didn't, I waited for the MAX. Personally, I have the best of both worlds. I can play games on V2 SLI rig, and do all the other cool stuff with the G400 MAX.

[Kruzin]

"I feel that you just don't want to here that you have made a bad desision"

3rd grade spelling aside, this statement alone shows your arrogant presumption. To decide if I made a good decision or not your place. I know I made the right decision for ME. Just because your needs/wants don't equate to G400 does not mean mine, or anyone elses don't. Go run your TnT2U benchmarks so you can brag to your pre-teen FPS counting buddies, and I'll just enjoy playing the games at well above playable FPS, with the best visuals around....

[This message has been edited by Kruzin (edited 09-30-1999).]

[Jorden]

Some people are ignorant and others just don't get it....

[paulcs]

I think its a bit presumptuous to state that people who are happy with their G400's have made a bad decision and are attempting to rationalize it. There are plenty of people here who did their homework, made an informed choice, and are quite happy with their purchase. Some of us have had our expectations met and exceeded.

If I ran out and purchased a G400 expecting Voodoo3-like framerates from a Unreal engine-based game, well, I'd feel like an idiot. And, probably for the first time in my life, I'd be right. The current crop of videocards all have their strengths and weaknesses, and these are all well documented. I'm stating the obvious when I say it's up to the end-user to access his or her needs and make a decision based on those needs.

I can't help but think that some people didn't do their homework and made a big, expensive mistake. Instead of moving on, with the knowledge that expensive mistakes should bring, they register here for the sole purpose of striking out against Matrox and burdening the users who are here for other reasons.

Of all the defense mechanisms, projection has to be the least attractive, albeit the most revealing. If the dunce cap fits, wear it.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[motub]

Paulcs: In other words, "<u>some are ignorant, and some just don't get it</u>".

Gee, where did I hear that before? In your defense, you did say it in a much more intellectual fashion...

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Holly (sticking up for Jord in compliance with "Girlfriend's and Fiancee's" official regulations [previously detailed])

[cirrus]

Kruzin is making a great point here. This site is Matrox users resource centre and this forum is Matrox hardware. So this forum isn't the best place to come and tell that matrox is shit, buy a voodoo3. There are forums even in this site where your opinions could be more apriciated. Like General hardware for example. Of course you are entitled have your own opinion, but choose the right place to expres those opinions.

Sorry if my English sucks, I was little bit drunk when I typed this .


--
Arto

[This message has been edited by cirrus (edited 10-01-1999).]

[This message has been edited by cirrus (edited 10-01-1999).]

[Jorden]

I vote for Cirrus to become a fully pledged member of these Fori !!! Yeah !! Well said, Cirrus.... [sigh] what we've been saying these past few months......

Jorden.

[o-o-o-]

Neither Pige nor I are saying that the G400M is crap. What we're saying is that it doesn't live up to the hype that it's a great gaming card. That's how it's being marketed, and the marketing hype is misleading to say the least.

Matrox has strung people along for several months now regarding improvement of the OpenGL support (not to mention stringing their distribution channel along lately), and now it turns out that it's a non-starter for a substantial portion of the crowd that has been considering this card. A darned shame... really.

IMO the Matrox User's Group is a place where people seeking information might come to find out more about Matrox cards... part of that is finding out about how the Matrox cards stack up to competitors. Silly me, it appears that Murc is merely a place where a bunch of cheerleaders do little more than squelch opposing opinions and blow sunshine up each other's tailends.

The Matrox card is good overall, especially at super-high resolutions, and especially for people looking for some unique features. However, for people who want a single card gaming solution, it is NOT the answer. Period.

If some of you folks are too insecure to have an honest discussion, rather than a feel-good-about-Matrox party, that's your problem, not mine. But try to take an intellectually-honest approach to the discussion... sheesh.

In any case, I thought Pige's post was a pretty good summation of why someone might not want to buy a G400M... sure he was a bit miffed, but frankly I don't blame him.

And, as for doing homework, every source that I read to this point in time was pretty positive about the G400M, though they noted that OpenGL support was weak, but that drivers were still in Beta. So, a real Matrox fan like Pige goes out and grabs the card, betting that Matrox is really going for it this time, and then gets blindsided when he finds out that he & his OverClocked Celeron are screwed. Like I said, I don't blame him for being a bit ticked.

Well, at least I'm happy that I did my homework enough to decide to wait it out and see if the OpenGL support improved... the announcement last week really helped me make up my mind on the issue.

As for your minds, like many said... if you made a decision you are comfortable with, that's excellent (I mean that sincerely). But I don't feel guilty about discussing a topic which might make _some_ people think twice about getting the G400M... perhaps their graphic card needs are more like mine & Pige's?? Mighty presumptuous of *you* folks to think that your needs/wants are pre-eminent, don't you think??

[Joel]

Is it my turn now? There are just some people who make mistakes and instead of taking accountablity for that they try to blame someone else. Pige is a prime example of this. Because he made a mistake that he can not own up to he feels that he must warn the world of the evil that is called Matrox. Most of the regulars here have seen this time and time again but we all know that fps is not the end all be all of a video card. If the fastest frame rates possible in FPS is all these ppl are looking for then they should get a console unit instead. Obviously they don't understand that a computer is for more than just playing games.

Joel

[Dilitante1]

Not to be curt, but, the title of this thread is what pige? Goodbye?...then dont let us hold you from leaving...your attempt to proove a point failed (miserably)...now go away...your rantings towards people who have offered help/info/tweaks to assist you have gone on long enough....you have made your choice to sell your card, now let others make truely informed decision as to whether to purchase which card for thier needs....(without highly slanted opinions from you)....I still own a G200, and for the most part am satisfied with the product...

-Dil

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Damn, I have way too much time on my hands...time for a story!

[paulcs]

I've never seen so many warnings about a product as I did with the G400 and, specifically, its potential OpenGL performance. Over and over again, in reviews and on Usenet, wait and see, wait and see.

I can't imagine anything causing as much of an uproar as the Matrox's OpenGL debacle last year. It was a nightmare that just wouldn't go away. I personally don't think the ICD's performance is that bad. However, to think, after everything that happened last year, that Matrox would have a full ICD with nVidia-like gaming performace or Oxygen-like performance in apps, just doesn't make sense to me. And to expect Voodoo3-like performance in a Glide-based game is more than a little optimistic.

One has to take marketing hype with a grain of salt. I think, this year at least, as far as marketing claims vs. reality goes, I think Matrox has done pretty well this year.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[o-o-o-]

Paul, I completely agree that one has to take the hype with a grain of salt. By the same token, there weren't dire warnings about the OpenGL support, but rather comments along the lines of "there are some shortcomings in the OpenGL drivers, but the drivers are Beta, and we expect that these shortcomings should be rectified in their general release drivers." Sure, I was able to read between the lines and held off my purchase. But I'm sure that plenty of others didn't.

It would be nice to see more fair-minded comments here (and, don't get me wrong, you seem to take that approach), rather than the "blowing sunshine" commentary of people like Kruzin, Rags, etc.

My take on the G400M is that it's an excellent "special feature" card, a good all-around solution, but an incomplete card for gamers... however, to this point in time, the card has been heavily promoted within the gaming community. So it's definitely fair game for a discussion on that topic.

In general, I'd have to agree with IceStorm that a good TNT2 Ultra card is probably a better all-around solution than the G400 family if you're a gamer.

Maybe Pige wasn't as constructive as you might have liked (interestingly, I think he got more negative the more people around here attacked him)... but that doesn't make his commentary any less valid IMO.

Cheers.

[Bohrn]

Hey, I only run a slightly oc'ed celery (337) and a regular G400. Iit is totally playable. Q3test 108 does 31fps in timedemo 1,Descent3 totally is smooth,(I dunno how to bench it), and WW2Fighters and Xwing alliance are both smooth as glass! The only game that is a bit of a bear is NFS4. And if I turn the horizon down a notch, all is well. I do have a good motherboard tho...

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AssuP2B ,300a at 337, 128megs PC100, G40032megSH, Yamaha PCI sound,2 small HD's, 42X Sony CDrom and 98SE w/shutdown patch, PD 5.25 w/beta ICD

[Rags]

I don't disagree at all the OpenGL needs work, but I would hardly call the G400 a crippled card because of this. Most games are D3D now, and OpenGL performance is more than acceptable right now, and it is improving drastically. It is apparent that you have no clue as to what you are talking about. There are much more to games than talking fps, things such as PLAYING the game. Maybe if one of these days you quit wacking off to getting high frame rates/benchmarks, you would see that the G400 plays everything you throw at it, with a few exceptions.

Rags



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FedEx Sucks!

[DK]

Pige,
If you waited thru the growing pains of the drivers I think you might change your mind. I too have a P2-400, just got a P3-500, most people will upgrade or buy new computers anyway. From what I see, most people don't keep their processors more than 2 years and thats probably the longest. I guess Matrox is trying to take advantage of the new processors, why not, sounds like a good business decision to me. I like companies that progress, helps my stock.

BTW- I didn't buy a P-3 for the turbo GL stuff, I don't use it, not yet anyway and i'm a big gamer, just not that type.

Hey, just to inform people of good buys, I picked up a P3-500 retail at Ebay for $195, serial # matches thru Intel so its not a fake, best damn deal I ever got there, shipping was $15.

Derek

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Wishing for snow, want to go skiing so bad its killing me.