I've been seduced!

[Snake-Eyes]

Got to give ATI some credit- they've already got Win2K drivers out that work with the Radeon cards, even if they are extremely lousy compared to the competition right now.

On the other hand, since ATI has such a spotty record when it comes to updating the drivers, it might be a while before their drivers improve any at all (if ever).

So I guess you take your chances with their hardware. That's about par for the course nowadays though, from any manufacturer.

------------------
Ace

[Humus]

paulcs:
How could the drivers possibly be based upon the Rage 128 drivers?? The hardware is oh so different. And ATi has officially said that the drivers are rewritten from scratch for the Radeon.

I don't understand why people can't forgive a companys past. I has a G100 two years ago, it officially sucked. I had lots of problems with games and normal applications and each new driver revision made the problems worse.
So I bought a Voodoo2 and was quite happy with it. A year ago I thought about upgrading my computer and I heard a lot of the G400. But I didn't judge the G400 from my experience with the G100. So after reading a lot of reviews recommending it I bought it, and I've been happy with it until now (except some issues with the OpenGL ICD not supporting certain feature needed for my development, but it's been solved by now).
So why judge the Radeon based on experience with Rage Fury/128/whatever cards?

One thing I really not understand it why people claim that nVidia has so superior drivers. Everywhere people say ATi drivers sucks, but at all forums I ever visit I see topics like "Detonator 3 not working", "GF2 problem", "Whats wrong with my 6.18 drivers?" all over the place. Almost noone mentions any ATi card, and the only Radeon problems so far i've heard of is some issues with KX-133 boards (which supposedly has been solved) and a single guy who couldn't run 3dmarks2000 at his Radeon (while everyone else could).

Jeeezz ... why are people so narrow-minded?

[Rob M.]

I'm not gonna say ATI has good drivers, but at least their hardware is good. I've had 3 G400 max's so far, the latest direct from matrox, and not one works even at 2x AGP. As for drivers, well we can't really diss ati, try running q3radiant. It has been out 8 MONTHS and still doesn't work right.

If you want good hardware AND great drivers, face the facts and buy nvidia. As for complaints about 6.18 drivers not working, at least they have the option to go back to older drivers that are fully functional. I'd go back to release the drivers if it meant my q3radiant would work...

[Joel]

And if you can't get the G400 MAXs to run in 2x AGP mode then more than likely the problem is in your suck ass system. I've run my G400 OCed to MAX speeds on three different motherboards and 2x AGP was always there by default. And I have probably one of the first G400s to roll off the production line.

Joel

[Himself]

ATi's drivers suck, ok, for what model card and what exactly is entailed in the sucking? All I see is lots of FUD directed towards ATi, it would be nice if you stated specific cases, it would look at lot less like bandwagon.

[Rags]

Why do we need to be specific? This thread isn't a debate, or is it? Last time I checked, it was an OT post that was getting our opinions thrown back at it.

Rags

[paulcs]

Humus, I should have said "I've read that the Radeon drivers were base upon the the Rage 128 drivers." My mistake. I suspect the reviewers who made this claim experienced issues with the built from scratch Radeon drivers similar to to what they experienced with the Rage 128/MAXX drivers.

After Matrox's OpenGL debacle, I picked up a Rage Fury and got lockups in Notepad. Notepad! Maybe the most mamby-pamby, vanilla Windows program on the planet. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I've written a lot about my experiences with ATI drivers here in this very forum. I'm sure I could put them all together and produce a short book.

Listen, no one is going to stop you from buying the Radeon. Good luck. I'm sure it will be a character building experience. But mark my words: ATI is in trouble. In the recent past, they have lost some of their biggest OEM deals (most notably Dell, although ATI boards can still be found in Dell laptops) and a few weeks ago, they managed to alienate their biggest OEM customer, Apple. Steve Jobs personally had Radeons removed from every single machine at MacWorld and every single reference to the Radeon struck from the conference.

They appear to have killed the goose that laid the golden eggs. It's just hard to imagine any company screwing up worse. Maybe they'll turn things around, but I haven't heard of any major OEM wins for the Radeon lately. That's bad news for a company like ATI. I think they went way out of their way to find themselves in the position they are in today.

In any case, I think this OT discussion should be moved here:

http://www.rageunderground.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi

The fact that the Rage Underground discussion boards actually have forums for Matrox and NVIDIA boards should tell you something. The fact that one of the Rage Underground's writers and forum moderators owns a G400 should tell you more. It's a good site, however, and if you guys opt to go with ATI, it's a great, objective resource.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[Livius]

One suggestion: never judge a card's performance/stability by the complaints you encounter in forums. There will always be people who can't install a card properly and then complain loudly about it. So do not give too much credit to what you read in NV message boards.

As for ATI, Radeon and drivers... I guess that for the time being you can only find out by giving it a try. But at least make sure you grab some return policy or something to enable you to exchange the card later on.

[rubank]

I have my doubts about ATI desktop cards, but my dear Dell Inspiron 3700 - that was stolen yesterday, thank you very much - had the 8 mb Rage Mobility and the output was nothing short of perfect. And as far as drivers go, I´ve tried more apps than you can imagine - virtually anything between notepad and 3DsMax 3.1 - and there never was a single issue. ATI obviously can write drivers, so I wouldn´t rule them out as of yet.

rubank

[Joel]

Hell, the ATI Rage Pro IIC embeded video grahics in my Dell NT workstation at work was so bad that I brought my G200 from home to use in it just so I wouldn't go blind trying to do my work.

Joel

[Humus]

Rob M / Livius:
If nVidia drivers are so great, why do I read so much about problems with them? Is this yelling about problems and which card i choosed both based on personality? In all forums there are on a daily basis coming up problems with nVidia drivers. Almost never any problems with V5, nor the Radeon. Is it that the guys who buy nVidia cards are more yellier people? I have my doubts, the nVidia driver problems is a reality. There are HW problems too, like GF + Athlon, which is caused by nVidia who keeps living on the edge of the specifications.

paulcs:
Yes, ATi has lost much ground in the OEM world, that's why they developed the Radeon. The Radeon is more geared towards retail. ATi know that they will stand or fall with the Radeon, they won't screw thing up this time.

[paulcs]

"One suggestion: never judge a card's performance/stability by the complaints you encounter in forums. There will always be people who can't install a card properly and then complain loudly about it. So do not give too much credit to what you read in NV message boards."

Just to put Livius's comments in perspective...

I have seven systems running in my house, six of them home-assembled, with seven different videocards from three different manufacturers (Matrox, NVIDIA, and 3dfx). Frankly, none of them have a display because I haven't the faintest idea of how to properly install a videocard.

Three of the disaffected former ATI users on this thread are Matrox beta testers. I would hope they, at the very least, would know how to properly install a videocard.

There's no denying that ATI's OEM base, as impressive as it was, has seriously eroded. I assume at least some of ATI's former OEM partners could install a videocard.

With all due respect to Livius, I think this thread is top-heavy with computer professionals, and ATI has the worst reputation in the industry as far as driver support goes. This reputation is, as far as I'm concerned, well-deserved, and I believe it has damaged a once fine and extremely profitable company.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[rubank]

Humus,
as you are living in northern Sweden, I hope you think faster than you speak. But I don´t know.
Could it be that there is a relationship between the numbers of fori with whining kids and the number of sold cards? More people complain about nVidia cards than about Radeons. Hmmmm...

How many nVidia cards/drivers have YOU tried? How many of anything?

And do you think problems with AMD/Via are typically nVidia problems? Where have you been the last couple of years!

rubank

[This message has been edited by rubank (edited 02 September 2000).]

[Joel]

Hey rubank,

The AMD/VIA problems is more a problem of cheap ass motherboards than anything else. I have three different AMD/VIA systems with Matrox cards in each of them and each one runs great. With my primary machine being an 800MHz Thunderbird on an Asus A7V motherboard with the G4xx running at 4x AGP.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 02 September 2000).]

[paulcs]

Humus, I think you're right in that ATI has focused on the retail market lately, although I think that focus predates the Radeon. You could have said the *exact* same thing about the MAXX, a board aimed squarely at the retail market, and it was a dismal failure. An embarrassment of epic proportions. It sold poorly. There were bad driver issues. ATI couldn't deliver on certain promises and had to issue an embarrassing retraction.

I think this is the absolute worse time to focus on the retail side of the videocard business. I'm not sure it is even possible to make money doing this. Look at 3dfx. As unbelieveable as this might seem, they sell more retail videocards than anyone, and they lose millions doing it.

ATI was a money making machine. Their profit margins were the envy of everyone in the industry. Now that they've lost or pissed-off many of their old OEM partners, and shifted their focus to the retail market, they are seriously in the red. NVIDIA is selling exclusively to OEM's, and they are now the big cash cow.

Maybe they'll turn things around, but I doubt the Radeon is going to do that for them. I think the Radeon All-in-Wonder is an interesting board, but I doubt it will turn things around for them. The "vanilla" Radeon, I think, is just too little, too late.

I think ATI has to get there OEM partners to buy this board, and they're in big trouble if they don't. And angering Steve Jobs like they did was quite possibly the stupidest thing they could do.

Here's another example of ATI's marketing genius: ATI is now offering a trade-in plan where you actually get to pay *more* for the Radeon if you send them your old videocard than if you were to purchase the board from many retail vendors. I've seen several Fury and MAXX users joke that it might be worth it, just to get rid of their old boards.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 02 September 2000).]