G400 Max vs ATi Radeon 8500

[Big Dog]

My apologies for sounding kinda anal in this post, but would appreciate some good input.

I posted here a couple of weeks ago that I had the opportunity to get my G400 Max, which I did (fyi, went to my sis-in-laws to set up their network, and one of their 'puters had it in there - swapped it for a G550).

Here's my situation: I have a Gateway Performance 700 (1.8Gz Intel and 512mb RAM) that came with an OEM ATi Radeon 8500. Decent card, but it appears that ATi's retail drivers aren't always compatible with their OEM versions. and Gateway doesn't update their drivers too quickly.

My primary applications are Office XP, Photoshop 7, Macromedia Flash, Cool Edit 2000 (sound editing program), and an occasional game (last game I had was Jedi Outcast. My next game will most likely be Knights of the Old Republic. Yeah, I'm a Star Wars fan).

Future upgrades planned are a Dazzle video capture setup, and a DVD-RAM drive.

My concerns with the ATi card - Right now, it's very stable. No problems with the drivers. However, I'm dependent upon Gateway for updates. Also, ATi makes decent hardware, but they've had (and continue to have) problems with writing decent drivers. It handles everything that I do now, but I know going to the G400 Max will provide better image quality for Photoshop and other stuff.

My concerns with Matrox - Three concers. First, with respects to DVD, I've seen a couple of posts or advice that there may be problems with DVD software players (i.e. WinDVD). Let me know if I'm out to lunch here. Also, with my desire to start creating DVD's, any known issues with respect to Matrox?

Second, game compability. The G400 Max was built around DX7. I've seen posts where some DX8 and DX9 games have image problems with a G400 Max. I believe Knights of the Old Republic will be built around the same/similar engine as Jedi Outcast, anyone have any problems w/ this game on their G400 (or G450/550)?

Third, Matrox longevity. Please don't flame me here. But Matrox appears to be way back in the pack. Yeah, ATi and Nvidia shuffle between first and second. And I did read Haig's update from December. Just would appreciate any input here.

Thanks for reading and look forward to your input/advice.

[UberLord]

Re: G400 Max vs ATi Radeon 8500

Originally posted by Big Dog
My concerns with the ATi card - Right now, it's very stable. No problems with the drivers. However, I'm dependent upon Gateway for updates. Also, ATi makes decent hardware, but they've had (and continue to have) problems with writing decent drivers.

First you say its very stable and you have no problems with the drivers and then go onto say that ATI have and continue to have problems writing decent drivers? Nice contradiction

Also, you're not dependant on Gateway for your drivers - you can install the "Powered by" versions for your 8500 from www.ati.com
Also, the more recent releases by ATI work on all makes of card - I use a Hercules 9700 pro myself

[Big Dog]

UberLord - yeah, your right on the apparent contradiction. Gateway's drivers are stable, but old.

ATi's retail drivers (both Built by and Powered By versions) provide more features, but a number of users have experienced problems w/ them (as noted on several sites, including 3dRage).

I've tried both the Built By and Powered By and run into an occasional problem, that could only be fixed by going back to Gateway's driver version. It may be that there is a design difference in ATi's OEM boards that may create compatability issues with drivers direct from ATi. I'm aware that ATi cards that are used by Dell can only handle drivers from Dell (i.e. using drivers from ATi's site has caused major problems in Dell computers).

Hop that clarifies that issue.

[Novdid]

Flash your board with the 8500LE BIOS. Just ask the people over at Rage3d how to do it.

After that you get an ordinary 8500 that you can use with all drivers.

The G400 is built around DX6 not 7.

If you game the 8500 is better, but if you only use your computer for office use then the G400 is better, it's your choice.

[UberLord]

Originally posted by Big Dog
ATi's retail drivers (both Built by and Powered By versions) provide more features, but a number of users have experienced problems w/ them (as noted on several sites, including 3dRage).

You'll find the same with all the other IHV - but generally the newer the driver the more stable/less problematic it is. The current Cat3 drivers are very stable for me - but then it all depends what apps/games you run. No-one runs the same stuff.

I've tried both the Built By and Powered By and run into an occasional problem, that could only be fixed by going back to Gateway's driver version. It may be that there is a design difference in ATi's OEM boards that may create compatability issues with drivers direct from ATi. I'm aware that ATi cards that are used by Dell can only handle drivers from Dell (i.e. using drivers from ATi's site has caused major problems in Dell computers).

Hop that clarifies that issue.

Pop over to Rage3D or Driverheaven where more people with 8500's can help solve your problem. And AFAIK the only thing thats really different between the various cards from Dell, ATI and Hercules for example is a bytecode in the cards BIOS for the manufacturer. The only real issue is that older ATI drivers only installed on ATI made cards. As ATI are becoming more of the chip supplier rather than a board maker this has now become a non-issue and all Cat3 drivers install on all makes of ATI cards.

Hope this clarifies things somewhat

[Indiana]

Or you could probably try to explain those "occasional problems" a slight bit more specific...
BTW, just go with the OmegaDrivers that can be found here, those install on every Radeon based card, even the Mobility and do provide better game compatibility for some.

[Big Dog]

Thanks for all of your input. Perhaps my post/questions were too long.

Simply put, I use my 'puter mostly for work with Photoshop, Flash, audio editing, MS Office, and once in a while, a game or two. Future aspirations include video capture (w/ a Dazzle USB/Firewire unit) and editing. Guess if I want superb image quality, the G400 Max is the best choice.

urm....Kruzin - any thoughts? (please)

[Big Dog]

Uberlord - quick question. You seem to favor ATi over Matrox. Any particular reason? i.e. gaming, image quality, etc.

Thanks again for your thoughts/input

[Greebe]

That's an easy question to answer. Uber likes the 8500 better because it's much faster for gaming. 8500=1 year old, G400=3 years old.

Image quality is still much better than the 8500, let alone far better drivers.

[Big Dog]

Greebe - thanks. Fair enough. Yeah, the 8500 is a better card for gaming, and general usage. If all I did was games, I'd go witn Nvidia, but the image quality is still lacking there.

Will probably put in the G400 Max this evening and go from there.

[chhfchhf]

8500 is very out standing !
super sample fit the FSAA

[Novdid]

Sadly it's too slow for FSAA, IMO. The only boards that seem to offer acceptable FSAA in terms of performance is the 9500Pro and up, including the GFFX. P's FAA is offcourse very good, but that's not FSAA.

[UberLord]

Originally posted by Greebe
That's an easy question to answer. Uber likes the 8500 better because it's much faster for gaming. 8500=1 year old, G400=3 years old.

Image quality is still much better than the 8500, let alone far better drivers.

Thanks for putting words into my mouth there Greebe

1. I did not state a preference for an 8500 over a G400 anywhere in this thread - or anywhere in this board.
2. IQ is very subjective. Personally I find the 3D quality of an 8500 superior to the Gxxx cards (based on my experiences with a G200) where the 2D quality is slightly worse.
3. Your statement is vastly inaccurate about the drivers. I'm sure you can point to "driver problems" on others boards such as R3D for 8500 problems, where I could equally point to "driver problems" for the G400 over at the Matrox Tech forums - or even here.

Now, go back to playing with your building blocks

[UberLord]

Originally posted by Big Dog
Uberlord - quick question. You seem to favor ATi over Matrox. Any particular reason? i.e. gaming, image quality, etc.

Thanks again for your thoughts/input

I'm mainly a gamer, so IQ takes a back seat when I buy a new card. However, I'm not that blind to the advantages of good IQ

As I said in the above post, I find 8500 3D IQ vastly superior to my old G200 card, whereas the G200 has a very slight edge in 2D.

So I would choose the 8500 over the Gxxx card. Now, if it was a parhelia (and they fixed than damn banding problem ) then a Parhelia would win hands down in both departments. However, my current Hercules 9700 Pro rules all in both IQ and gaming ability.

I see no reason to change your current 8500 card into a Gxxx card. IMHO.

[UberLord]

Originally posted by Novdid
Sadly it's too slow for FSAA, IMO. The only boards that seem to offer acceptable FSAA in terms of performance is the 9500Pro and up, including the GFFX. P's FAA is offcourse very good, but that's not FSAA.

Sadly you're right.

However, it works great on games such as FreeSpace, Half Life and Counter Strike (provided u have 2D smoke)