Best 2D card?

[bobkoure]

Hey folks!
I've been using a G400 with a Sony GDM-F520 (1600x1200@85) and I'm a bit spoiled.
I'm in process of setting up another system and wonder if something has come along that out-does the 400 in 2D (don't care much about 3d or multiple monitors).
As I remember, the 400 was the last Matrox card that had 128bit SDR memory (450 and 550 had DDR but 64 bit, right?). I'm not sure this matters for 2D, anyway (?)
The 400 I've got (16MB single head) AFAIK has a 300MHz RAMDAC in it - I would expect that a faster RAMDAC (or at least as fast) is what I'm looking for (yes? no?)
I'm not actually sure that a faster RAMDAC would make much difference if I stayed at the same bandwidth - but I''m guessing that additional "headroom" might help a bit (and maybe not - digital devices don't necessarily work like analog ones).

As a further complication, I care (a lot) about how much noise my PC makes.
I'd guess that the 400MAX is exactly what I'm looking for (360MHz RAMDAC and 128 bit wide SDR memory), but as luck would have it, this is the one Millennium that has a fan on it.
I can probably fit some sort of water block to the card, but, being from Matrox, I would guess the heatsink connection pins are not the same thing as those from ATI or Nvidia - so it would be an expensive (in time - or in noise) proposition getting a 400MAX to work in my system.
Anyone got suggestions?
Oh - if any of the 3D cards currently out there have as-good 2D as the G400, I'd love to hear about it. I'm not a Matrox bigot - but feel that, inasmuch as they've done a good job continuing to support my growing-older G400, I should give them first crack at getting my money.
A big "Thank you!" for any input - and if this has been discussed before, I'd really like a pointer to that discussion - the search engine does not like "two letter" search terms like "2D" - even if in a boolean search string.
Thanks!
Bob
PS: If anyone here is looking for a G400MAX, it looks like the one computer geeks is selling is a MAX - as it has a fan (or did some later G400 have fans, too?)

[UtwigMU]

RAMDAC speed alone doesn't mean much.

I own G400 16SH (300MHz RAMDAC) and Hercules 3D Prophet 2MX (360MHz RAMDAC). Guess which one looks better.

If you don't care for 3D performance, G400 MAX would give you no benefits regarding 2D performance.

G450 and G550 are fanless and their 2ndary RAMDAC is 230 as opposed to G400's 175.

If all you care is 2D, Matrox is teh win. If you'd like some more 3D oomph, I recommend looking into Built by Ati or Hercules Radeons. Leadtek is supposedly good image quality-wise.

I say, try before you buy.

[Nowhere]

If you're completely satisfied about your g400 2d (and don't want to go with much higher res and don't care about 3d speed) then leave it as it is. Maximum ramdac frequency just gives greater headroom with resolution - it will not give you better 2d.
btw, the rumor is that Parhelia is currently the card with absolutely the best 2d (and good 3d speed)...but I don't see much demand for 3d speed from your post...
The new Radeons are also very good in 2d (and even better in 3d speed).

[JaG]

Hi,

I share your wishes, bobkoure. Use the slightly smaller Sony F-400 as (primary) display and decided last year to upgrade my (main) home station.

Until that upgrade I used G400 and later G400Max as display cards. As you I was completly satisfied. In 2D quality these cards showed no visual differencies.

My new station uses Parhelia now, and although I didn't expect any more possible 2D quality enhancements on my displays, the pictures seem to be again more crispy and clearer.

So, Parhelia is the next step on the way to a perfect image quality but, as Nowhere just expressed, own ATi's new Radeons more 3D power.

Ok, you told us that you don't care 'much' about 3D or multi monitor capabilities but what does that mean exactly? - There is an other very good Matrox choise for 2D graphics but much cheaper when you definetly don't care about 3D power. It's the mentioned G550. G550's 2D image quality is at least nearly as good as Parhelia's and quite better than that of the good old G400. In 3D discipline this card offers only basic support. I use it in various office systems at work and am very content with it either.

When building a system with G550 you get two advantages the low price (especially compared to Parhelia) and a fan free design. So no futher cooling mods are required for a 'low noise system'. In addition this card consumpts only a very low amount of power, which results in a cooler case. Installation in low profile PCI-slots is possible as well. The disadvantage is the lack in 3D perfomance and some lacking multi display features (Parhelia offers...). The 3D features of G550 are not comparable to modern cards any more. I would expect it to be three to six times slower than modern ones generally.

As mentioned, Parhelia and G400Max use active heat sinks. G400Max develops no too significant noise but Parhelia does. Although all other modern cards, I listened to, seemed to be louder, it was still disturbing.

Because of the different hole positions and distances I developed my own adapter T-ring. It works fine with Innovatek's water cooler since last September, now. Parhelia's core becomes less than hand warm under worest conditions and works fine and noise free. The installing of cooling blocks on Parhelia is quite simple because of it's IHS ('integrated heat sink' - a metal surface which protects the die and spreats the thermal surface). ATi cards don't use IHS.

An other silent, well balanced (2D/3D), non Matrox, solution is mabe the upcoming ATi Radeon 9600 family. It shall be build with a passive heat sink in some models, too. ATi manufactures this chip in 0.13 µ technology, which reduces the power consumption again.

Generally modern ATi cards offer better 2D image quality than nvidia, but won't reach those of Matrox models.

ps. By the way, compared to 128 bit SDR is 64 bit DDR no certain disadvantage (but it's no advantage either). At the same clock speed these two busses transfer theoretically the same amount of data. Enhancements in G550's mem bus and a higher clock compared to G400 end up in a slightly advantage for G550.

[Goc]

I wouldn't agree with you there JaG... I have yet to see anything in 3D to run better on G550 than on a G400MAX... And FYI G400MAX uses 128bit SGRAM memory thats somewhat faster then SDRAM...

If we don't count Parhelia, here at MURC, if I recollect correctly, 2D top quality list looks somewhat different... Gathered from many members the list would look something like this:

1. G400MAX
2. BBA ATI Radeon
3. G550
4. G400 vanilla
5. G450

It looks though that G550 would be the best choice, since it doesn't have a fan, and you seem to be keen on having a fanless configuration...

[bobkoure]

Sorry - I wasn't clear about how important 3D is to me - it's currently not even a little bit important (just don't use it - spend my time either forum reading/writing, software developing, or in photoshop). I was just hedging a little bit as I might get interested in a 3D something (dunno what, though) before I upgrade from whatever graphics card I end up with. I'm definitely not interested in shoot-em-up games, though...
Even with a 21" monitor, the only time I'm even tempted to go over 1600x1200 in in photoshop (for some filter operations, it's important to have a one-for-one correspondence between pixels in the image I'm manipulating and images on the screen). Otherwise I can't read text without straining (you folks must have really good eyes - better than mine, anyway).
It sounds like there's not much point in my trying out a 400MAX, but I'd ought to at least look at a 550 and a Parhelia. - And if I ever get the 3D "bug", I'm going to be happier with something from ATI than something from Nvidia (just for 2D quality issues).
The 550s have the advantage of being cheap enough that I can send one off (or take one apart myself) and replace the VGA (AKA HD15) connector with a set of BNCs - and not be too freaked out if it doesn't work out.
I've got some semi-high-end (or at least once upon a time it was high-end) home theater video gear, and having the HD15s replaced with BNCs made a difference (for the better) in video quality. I guess I'd ought to pose cable/connector issues in a separate thread...
Thanks so much for steering me in the right 2D direction!
Bob

[bobkoure]

Originally posted by Goc
... if I recollect correctly, 2D top quality list looks somewhat different... Gathered from many members the list would look something like this:
1. G400MAX
2. BBA ATI Radeon
3. G550
4. G400 vanilla
5. G450

There's a Radeon that's got 2D better than a 400? What does 'BBA' stand for (Built By ATI? Something else?) If it's built-by-ATI, I've read that their boards are actually made by Saphire, so I'd guess that it might apply to these as well ...?

It looks though that G550 would be the best choice, since it doesn't have a fan, and you seem to be keen on having a fanless configuration...

I am keen on quiet - and run watercooling for this reason. Radeons are easy to watercool because I can just buy a waterblock designed to fit and run a bit of extra tubing to plumb it in.
I don't think I can do the same thing with a 400MAX as there were never enough of them sold to become a standard-waterblock item. BTW, are the heatsink attachment points for the 400 and the 400MAX the same?
Thanks!
Bob

[Topha]

there is always the passive cooled radeon 9700pro by sapphire

If you want cheaper, I think many of the new 9600(pro) are passive cooled as well

[Jussi]

Originally posted by bobkoure
There's a Radeon that's got 2D better than a 400? What does 'BBA' stand for (Built By ATI? Something else?) If it's built-by-ATI, I've read that their boards are actually made by Saphire, so I'd guess that it might apply to these as well ...?

My Sapphire 9100 has slightly better image quality than my old G400MAX (19" Hitachi 1280x960 85Hz). The fan on the 9100 is a bit noisy but I removed it and have been playing a lot lately without any overheating problems.

[Kruzin]

bobkoure-
If you are serious about your photoshop use, you should concider the Parhelia, as it does 10bit gigacolor, and has a photoshop plugin for gigacolor. To date, it's the only consumer card available that can do this.

If the fan noise is a big issue for you, many users have fit their Parhelias with Zalman heat pipes and various water cooling solutions...

[Kurt]

Originally posted by bobkoure
There's a Radeon that's got 2D better than a 400? What does 'BBA' stand for (Built By ATI? Something else?) If it's built-by-ATI, I've read that their boards are actually made by Saphire, so I'd guess that it might apply to these as well ...?


I am keen on quiet - and run watercooling for this reason. Radeons are easy to watercool because I can just buy a waterblock designed to fit and run a bit of extra tubing to plumb it in.
I don't think I can do the same thing with a 400MAX as there were never enough of them sold to become a standard-waterblock item. BTW, are the heatsink attachment points for the 400 and the 400MAX the same?
Thanks!
Bob

yep Sapphire make boards for ATi.

Also, contrary to popular belief, memory speed IS important in 2D, albeit not at low resolutions. But in 1600*1200@85Hz you see a difference between the 64bit G550 and 128bit G400 (the G400 being faster)...

[Novdid]

Originally posted by Kurt
yep Sapphire make boards for ATi.

Also, contrary to popular belief, memory speed IS important in 2D, albeit not at low resolutions. But in 1600*1200@85Hz you see a difference between the 64bit G550 and 128bit G400 (the G400 being faster)...

Don't forget that it has to be 32bpp. The main reason why the G400 MAX is faster than the G550 is that it sports faster memory(200MHz vs *godknowswhatMHz*).

[Kurt]

32bits would definitely require more bandwith, but you could use super high res too