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So, what do you think of Millennium P-Series?

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  • #46
    Here are some of my bias opinions. I do not say that Matrox's strategy is wrong. But there are some points that Matrox's consideration might not match the current situation.

    I am not sure what Matrox PR were thinking. Maybe the idea of price definition on P650 and P750 is to fill the price gap of the the products that his competitors do not have with their special features...

    If so, I feel this idea will make his customers to very extremely limited small portion, which is not good for business of the global competition.

    The Matrox's recent year product strategy is kind of strange. The new product does not increase performance at all. Instead, some performance / features are eliminated or sacisificed to reduce the cost as the example below:

    G400, G400Max -> G450 , G550
    Parhelia-512 -> P650, P750

    However, Matrox still charges the premium price for the cost-down version of his products, which definitly have the very high profit margins. But there are a lot of competitive products with the much cheaper price tag which provides the better performance, similar features although the quality is not 100% as good as Matrox's. If they are just 50% as good as Matrox's, Matrox definitely has his big advantage. However, the fact is not. They are within 70~90% as good as Matrox's now.

    Other companies like nVidia, ATI are different. Although some of them are struggling with the big Financial problems causing from economy recession, they still always try to produce more cost-effective products and provide better performance. If not, at least the price is reduced, but the similar performance is still kept. In addition, the similar features as Matrox's keep improving to approach Matrox's level. In brief speaking, they are trying to provide the total solutions while Matrox keeps to limit his products to be useful in some special usage.

    When I compare the spec of 3DLabs Wildcat VP560, VP760 as the comparison, it looks like P650/P750's main targets are them. However, P650/P750 might not be competitive to VP560/VP760 in terms of price in 3D functionalities and performance.

    VP560 is around $160 for the street price. If P650 cannot provide the similar 3D performance as VP560, what is the advantage of P650 usage of Entry level 3D workstation? It does not look like Matrox P650 has the chance to win this terrority. As a result, it is even limited to the professional Photo/AD Editing applcations because of output color accuracy. However, Quadro4 NVS200 does not seem competitive to P650 in the similar area.

    Because VP760 uses 256bit memory interface, its 3D performance is definitely better than P750 in most cases. (although the video memory is also 64MB) For the around $50 difference, OEM vendors might choose better and mature 3D performer VP750 if TriHead features is not the main goal of the product line. Keep in mind that 3DLabs' professional OpenGL implementation and stability are still better than nVidia / ATI / Matrox's.



    My suggestion is that Matrox should not just excuse and say sorry to those customers that his products cannot match the requirements in terms of price / performance / etc... This is definitely not a good survial method in doing business. Only the flexibility of the product is better, that product can survive and create more opportunities among the competitions.
    P4-2.8C, IC7-G, G550

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sasq
      Hmm yes, I would trust buying products from a company that doesn't even know the correct title...

      That said, you are of course supposing the problems with the <strike>G-1000</strike> Parhelia aren't fixed on the new card. How about waiting for some reviews of the card first.

      Dan
      You're right. I should wait for the reviews. Anyway, my bad, ATIC only sells the Parhelia at that price if it comes with a new system. I seriously doubt they'd consider the lower price if you only wanted the card.
      Last edited by cy007; 26 April 2003, 16:23.

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      • #48
        TV-OUT on p650

        The passive cooling on the p650 would be great for watching movies (as well as my 2-D work). I'm trying to determine if the p650 has a traditional TV-OUT setup or if it is only dual monitor. Will a cable similar to the Parhelia-512 cable that allows simple TV connection work on this card as well? Can anybody help me out with this information? I'd seriously consider the P750, but that is a lot of money...This is all assuming all banding issues are resolved and they will do more than promise a linux driver this time.
        Just a month left of grad school!

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        • #49
          Both cards will only allow one VGA/DVI output when using a TV - the P750 has a TV-out cable supplied, for the P650 it's optional.

          AZ
          There's an Opera in my macbook.

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          • #50
            AZ, the P750 will allow dual display while using TV out - If I'm reading the documentation correctly.
            (But only one DVI panel in that configuration)
            Dan
            Juu nin to iro


            English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

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            • #51
              Oh yes, I saw just now - thanks for the heads-up

              AZ
              There's an Opera in my macbook.

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              • #52
                I voted hit.

                The P650 suited my needs perfectly at work.

                I design websites and do a lot of graphics work.

                I use dual-head DVI 17i TFT screens and I must say the P650 suites my needs perfectly.

                And the price was at about the right range too. I wanted to get a Parhelia but it was too expensive.

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                • #53
                  Since Matrox put their eggs in the "Enviromental Bump Mapping" basket as the main feature of the G400 cards, they haven't been giving the Public at large what they want, IMO.

                  I have a bogstd PNY Nvidia GFti4600, that runs my 19" screen as well as my old G400MAX @ 1600x1200@85Hz, I'm one of these ppl who can detect even the slightest flicker @ 80Hz. My old GF2 (RIP) was equally good, so all the stuff spouted about Matrox 2d Quality don't hold water with me these days... Probly if you the cheapest one in the shop, then it'd look crap.

                  They're too expensive for the speed and features. I'm thinking about an XGI Duo or the Geforce 6 for my next upgrade. From what I've heard so far, once the drivers have matured a bit, etc, the XGI looks like one kick@$$ card.
                  But it'll probly be next yr (2005) until I upgrade (unless something horrible happens- & then I'll probly go back to my G400.)

                  Matrox will have to pull something very special out of the bag to get this Hardware nut, who has lost faith in Matrox's product philosophy, to pay hard-earned cash for another Matrox card.

                  If Compaq and other system builders don't take the cards, then I believe Matrox will struggle.
                  Last edited by markedmundb; 10 January 2004, 03:42.

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                  • #54
                    In my opinion the Millenium-P cards are good products for the target market, but of course a little bit too expensive .

                    P650 = perfect 2D and dualhead card
                    P750 = increased performance and triple head

                    But I think Matrox also needs a card like the Parhelia for 3d-workstations and people who not only want to do some 2d-work but also want to play some games. Only releasing performance-reduced 2d-cards after a good allround product like the Parhelia doesn't seem a good choice of Matrox for me...
                    P IV 3,06 Ghz, GA-8ihxp i850e, 512 MB PC-1066 RDRam, Parhelia 128 mb 8x, 40 + 60 gb IBM 7200 upm/2048 kb HD, Samtron 96 P 19", black icemat, Razer Boomslang 2100 krz-2 + mousebungee, Videologic sonic fury, Creative Soundworks

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by markedmundb

                      I have a bogstd PNY Nvidia GFti4600, that runs my 19" screen as well as my old G400MAX @ 1600x1200@85Hz, I'm one of these ppl who can detect even the slightest flicker @ 80Hz. My old GF2 (RIP) was equally good, so all the stuff spouted about Matrox 2d Quality don't hold water with me these days...
                      OK, if for you the 2D quality is the same on the G400Max as on a GF2 , then of course it does not make sense that you buy a Matrox card. Buy some glasses instead...
                      (And this doesn't have much to do with cheap or expensive cards, since ALL GF2 I know of have horrible signal quality)

                      For your other suggestions: There is no and never will be a Geforce6. And the XGI-cards are horrible: the most horrible cheaters of all-time as it seems, their FSAA is very limited, to say the least (only 2x and using the age-old Supersampling with its massive performance-hit combined with a BAD subpixel raster), the exact same bad solution as they used in the crappy XabreII chips.
                      The Volari seems to be nothing more than a somewhat overhauled and multichip-capable XabreII, but is far from a really new or even moderately exciting GPU..
                      Last edited by Indiana; 11 January 2004, 09:06.
                      But we named the *dog* Indiana...
                      My System
                      2nd System (not for Windows lovers )
                      German ATI-forum

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                      • #56
                        markedmundb: I really don't think by your description you are Matrox's target demographic.

                        I spend all day using two monitors (and half the damn night) I love my Matrox 2D quality thankyou.

                        The LX series does what it's designed for and does it well, yes it is a tad over priced, but my next upgrade at work will involve a P750, my boss cares about my productivity and comfortable work environment more then saving $80ish on a video card.
                        Juu nin to iro


                        English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Indiana
                          OK, if for you the 2D quality is the same on the G400Max as on a GF2 , then of course it does not make sense that you buy a Matrox card. Buy some glasses instead...
                          (And this doesn't have much to do with cheap or expensive cards, since ALL GF2 I know of have horrible signal quality) (...)
                          LOL.

                          I wonder if what he sees is really flicker, with all the blur a nice GF2 is capable of at 1600*1200...

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                          • #58
                            I used a Gf2pro (Gainward) some months, the image quality was terrible, even the old Rage 128 based card that I used before was better (in 32 bit ).
                            Parhelia image quality is just awesome...
                            P IV 3,06 Ghz, GA-8ihxp i850e, 512 MB PC-1066 RDRam, Parhelia 128 mb 8x, 40 + 60 gb IBM 7200 upm/2048 kb HD, Samtron 96 P 19", black icemat, Razer Boomslang 2100 krz-2 + mousebungee, Videologic sonic fury, Creative Soundworks

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                            • #59
                              Someone needs get some specs me thinks
                              Chief Lemon Buyer no more Linux sucks but not as much
                              Weather nut and sad git.

                              My Weather Page

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                              • #60
                                Something went wrong with this poll. It said "You have already voted on this poll" though I definately haven't?

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