P750 Review

[Taliska]

No banding - excellent - will wait until it comes out and now buy.

Thanks all for the hard work!

Taliska

[Sasq]

I've heard the same (no banding) - but still waiting on board and the official line. but yes good news

[Chrono_Wanderer]

I hope they didn't make new bugs though...

[shanebrooks]

I still dont understand why all the conjecture regarding the (bogus) nforce2 p750 scores under 3dmark. Didn't anyone look at the screen while the benchmark was running? I would have thought that any screen corruption/freezing/skipping tests etc should have been obvious.... in which case the numbers are meaningless and shouldnt be in the review IMHO.

That said - Mediaman's done a good job and the after sales service has been stellar.

[Chrono_Wanderer]

true shanebrooks. I personally wonder how the screen itself look like. If it is smooth and stuff, I am surprised

[DGhost]

lots of things it could be without cheating...

first... the Matrox drivers could be really, really unoptimized and benefit from the architectural differences between the nForce2 and the KT400...

second... the Matrox (or VIA... it is a VIA chipset, after all... would not suprise me one bit) drivers could have some issues that could be limiting performance...

Mediaman - not all users who experience the banding issue experienced it in only certain circumstances. some users see it when anything 3d accelerated is running... personally, no matter what the game is i see it... also... in some cases it is really hard to tell... on bright colors (light blues, white, grays, etc) it is predominantly noticable...

it is not simply a case of "it hurts when i do this" "so don't do that". I didn't have to do any mystical incantations or summon any demons for it to do it for me, simply open up a 3d accelerated program that generated sufficent strain on the card. For me, it occured on 2 entirely different systems with entirely different parts (not even the same model numbers for anything in the system, even the power supplies and hard drives - one was a dual P3 system and the other is a uniprocessor Athlon system) except for the Parhelia.


that being said... everything i have heard leading up to this point would indicate that the core the P650 and P750 is based off of is fixed (an example would be the half a year old rumor that has been confirmed by many other sources that the Banding issue has been fixed in the AGP 8x core revision, and has been ready to ship for quite a while).

RE: the review... I liked the fact that you were doing both KT400 and nForce2 platform reviews... although (having witnessed the huge difference that this can make with Matrox's drivers, in not only stability but also application compatability and the correctness of the final rendered image) i would love to have seen an Intel motherboard compared to the Athlon's...

my only major gripe is that the Xabre is *only* benchmarked on the NForce2 and the 9700 Pro is only benchmarked on the KT400. seems a bit inconsistant as the performance difference that can be achieved between these two chipsets is rather huge. would have loved to see the platform they are tested on being a lot more consistant.

[Chrono_Wanderer]

speaking of the banding of the Parhelia, I am afraid that it will never get addressed

[Mediaman]

DGhost

Mystical incantations....gotta write that one down for the next review.

I am aware of many such banding issue reports with the Parhelia. I empathize with the frustration users may be experiencing. I myself cannot figure out for the life of me why the NVIDIA Soundstorm S/P DIF is so darn "touchy". IT choses when to work...not I.

The 9700 PRO was thrown in there as another frame of reference. In hindsight it would have been preferable to bench each of these video cards on the identical platform. I totally agree. I received the P750 right about the time the couriers arrived with the AMD 3200+...and I have two other articles to complete the Home Entertainment PC series that's on the go. P750 arrived Tuesday....I launched Saturday. 3200+ arrived about the same time and it launched just yesterday (May 13, 2003)...and as any reviewer can back me up on....there's ALWAYS a heatsink lurking around to be reviewed.

Oh yes...forgot about that other thing that keeps me busy from 7AM-6PM...full time job. ROFL.

Let it be said that my spouse heard nothing but $#$@$&#@$^! and a "beep" of a post boot for about a week from the hours of 7PM till 1 AM during the week and I never saw daylight on the weekend.

Tech sites, such as this one, and Icrontic where I put digital pen to paper...try their best to present enough of a picture to allow you, the reader, to reach your own conclusion. Each piece of feedback I get helps me answer reader's questions the next time. I really do appreciate feedback when it is presented like this. Thank you.

I always try to look for what is good in a product. EG: Does it do what it was intended to do. I remember when the Parhelia came out a lot of sites said what a disappointment it was. It didn't OC high. It wasn't the GForce killer. It didn't tap dance.

My job is to look at something from all sides without bias. Did the Parhelia do what it was intended to do by Matrox design? I think we know that answer. From a frame hungry gamer's point of view...it missed. From a graphic artist's, display picky user point of view...it hit.

Now the P650/750 brings the promise of partially what is the Parhelia...at a price point that is way more palatable. With the users that want that type of card...it promises to be a hit with them.

Beyond the pretty graphs and the obligatory answer to the overclocking question...I try my best to de-babalize the tech and present a thought or two that novices and veterans will appreciate.

I always stand on my soap box and say:

1) Read at least 3 reviews
2) Be as specific as you can about what you want
3) Realize that there is a variable to everything. Look for the common threads and apply it to what you have at hand...the knowledge in your head...and the PC hardware in your hands. I try my best to add to the knowledge in the reader's head.

And each piece of information that I get...such as your post DGhost and yours Maggi...I learn something from. I know a tenth of a little bit in the big picture.



shanebrooks

hmmm...in or out eh? To not point out the NFORCE2 issue would not be right. I have three monitors on my desk...LOL...who here doesn't have at least two! What am I thinking? DOH!

The tests ran out of the corner of my right eye in the right monitor and I was tip-tapping away on the other monitor. 3D Mark 2001SE completed and on I went.

The games crashing grabbed my attention. The fact that 3DMARK 2001 SE ran and didn't apparently exhibit any strange behaviour...didn't grab my attention. When do you notice a fire...when you smell smoke or hear the fire engine?

I knew the NFORCE2 scores were not to be trusted. I clearly pointed out the issue but included the scores as that is what happened. It sure has created a lot of buzz. When I get back from my trip...I plan to settle back in with this to further investigate. Maybe Matrox will have some notes in my in box for me.

It's a judgement call on a writer's part. To blurt out "P750 nearly beats 9700PRO!" based on that...way wrong. I don't think I used this particular language but it was essentially..."See this? That's whacked. Gotta have somebody look into this."



man....I have to write shorter reviews and shorter posts.

[Chrono_Wanderer]

Re: DGhost

Originally posted by Mediaman
Oh yes...forgot about that other thing that keeps me busy from 7AM-6PM...full time job. ROFL.

Let it be said that my spouse heard nothing but $#$@$&#@$^! and a "beep" of a post boot for about a week from the hours of 7PM till 1 AM during the week and I never saw daylight on the weekend.

I feel your pain. I had been working/programming from 8am - 12am for the past week lol... no daylight for me either

[GNEP]

Mediaman: Your presence here on the forums is MUCH appreciated. Just wanted to say thankyou!

[DGhost]

Mediaman: trust me when i say i understand the strains of hardware testing. when i was working at a comp shop we had a hell of a time just finding the time to get new products tested and benchmarked - and that was part of my job. benchmarking and testing can be very time consuming, and to have to write a review about it afterwards would only just make it more difficult.

you did a damn fine job with conveying a good sense of what the card is and how it does its job. my gripe about the platform it is reviewed on is, for the most part, a trivial one because of one fact - the P750 is not a gamers card. it is a business card. so any performance differences that come from using different motherboards or a different platform is, for the most part, a moot point. Matrox has released another Matrox card. anyone know expected it to be something other than a typical Matrox card was horribly mislead somewhere along the lines.

i understand the pain of the nForce/2 boards... great performance, but the last ones i played with (acctually first-gen nForce boards the AMD rep gave us to play with since they were trying to push the nForce platform at the time) had tons of issues and always would work only when they wanted to...

acctually, now that i think about it i have a question... if you still have the P750... can you test dragging a 3d accelerated app (preferably something like a DX SDK demo or an OpenGL sampel so you don't kill your machine) from the first to the second monitor... on the Parhelia it results in a very large performance hit...

Thanks for posting here... it's always great to see another member of the hardware reviewing community here...

[ganyaik]

BTW, how come that there are no more reviews around?

[Mediaman]

DGhost

Thank you. Alrighty then. Something in my back hind brain in the dusty corner rings a bell with what you are asking me to do. I think, for some reason, it's called "blitzing the back buffer". (Realize that just popped into my head for some reason...so don't quote me)

For example...when you open a GPU intensive app such as you suggested or a hardware overlay such as a Quicktime movie in one window...then move it to the other movie while it is playing...you get a temporary "freak out" by the video card. That is to say it starts playing just fine in the first monitor then it craps out for performance after it is moved to the second monitor.

Restarting the app..as in re-opening the movie...clears it and all is well.

I think it is that you asked one RAMDAC to do the job...then you, by moving the window during play, asked the second RAMDAC to do the job. Meanwhile the first says "But didn't you just want me to...?" And the whole shootin' match clogs up.

I can't verify this at this moment but if it happens on the Parhelia chances are that it may happen with the P750 since the architecture is the same.

I know that on our NLE (non linear editors) that are, dare I say the word?.... MACs....moving a QuickTime window from either monitor doesn't affect play speed.

Hopefully I got this correct.



ganyaik

Why aren't there more/ANY other P650/P750 reviews floating about? I think Matrox is the one to ask that question of. I am not aware of their schedule for review samples and who gets what. I consider myself pretty damn lucky to have been chosen.

I can only guess given what information I have from other sources. The Inquirer had a post today about Logitech asking for the return of review samples above the 100 English Pound cost. Realize that these are tough profit margin times for everyone in the computer biz. The "hey days" are a distant memory. Look at the DRAM companies that are selling below cost and even closing doors.

ATI and NVIDIA are on ridiculously short product cycles. That HAS to be costing a lot of R&D and promo money. Just last year ATI sent me 3 of their biggest cards right in a row....now they are harder to find than your boss come time to pay the lunch bill.

Manufacturers and distributors may have had to cut back on promo expenditures and thus have had to be selective with the products and who they go to and in what order. Perhaps I was just the "testing" of the water before the product went out in large quantities....the "test launch" so to speak. I've taken feedback from this and other sources and fed it to Matrox.

Times have changed...the product no longer floweth over. Anybody knows that hunting for review product for a website is a process of 100 emails out...and if you are lucky...2 get a response. I'd love to say it is a constant party and trucks are pulling up to Icrontic Labs day and night with suppliers chucking product samples at us...the girls...the limos...the parties at Hef's place....

But it's more like a warm beer and bashing our heads against the monitors well into the wee hours of the morning.

Your guess is as good as mine. Will there be other Millennium P650/P750 reviews. Most likely yes. Just where and when is unknown to me but I will look forward to reading them.

[Sasq]

I am still waiting on my review sample for here. (something to do with the distances involved). Also there may or may not be other reasons for the lack of reviews available for the Millennium P series.

Dan

[Topha]

Maybe some sites just don't bother with reviewing cards that are not really interesting for gamers ?