How about an EMBM Quake 3 hack???

[Ansigod]

Hell, Nvidia did it already and they don't even have hardware for it! Come on Matrox - let's see you 1-up Nvidia and give us a Q3A EMBM hack! Wheee!

[Ansigod]

I'm talking about this:
http://www.shugashack.com/onearticle.x/5357

Nvidia released a bumpmapping demo-thingie for their GeForce cards that displays bumpmapping on Q3A models.

[Kruzin]

All Quake based games are OpenGL based.
EMBM is function of Direct3D.
It aint gonna happen...(not in Q3 anyway)

[This message has been edited by Kruzin (edited 22 March 2000).]

[Frankfurt]

I dont mean to disagree with you Kruzin...but when i was looking around for bump mapping demos i saw an OpenGL bumpmapping demo. I dont remember the location that i spotted it, but it seems to show that OpenGL can do bump mapping. One thing though, i'm now graphics expert so i may be wrong about how it was implemented.

Frankfurt

[Kruzin]

Bumpmapping can be implimented in OpenGL IF both the application AND the drivers are written to support it.

At this time, the Matrox OGL ICD does not support it, but I've heard that the Q3 engine does (although not used in the game as is).

With that in mind, I suppose I should rephrase my statement...It ain't gonna happen any time soon. Matrox would have to (1)add a bumpmapping extension to their ICD and (2)someone would need to make up maps for the game with BM'd textures.

I wouldn't hold my breath

[Ansigod]

Is there any difference between "Bump Mapping" and "Environment Mapped Bump Mapping" other than BM being shorthand for EMBM?

Very insightful there, Kruzin - however if Nvidia pulled of Q3A OpenGL bump mapping in that tech demo, how can it be too far off for Matrox?

[Kruzin]

Standard bumpmapping, aka Emboss Bumpmapping, can be done by any card with multi-texture capabilities. That's pretty much all of today's cards. This is done by just putting one flat texture over another, and giving the illusion of bumps. But if you look at it from different angles, it becomes obvious it's not really bumpy.

EMBM is a different beast. Only G400 can do it at this point. Rather than two flat textures, it uses a flat texture, and a bumped texture, with actual raised bumps. The result is much more impressive than embossing. EMBM can affect lights and shadows, and even make atmospheric effects (like the heat waves off of a flame).

If you watch the Bumpmapping tests in 3DMark2k, you will see a big difference between embossing and EMBM....

I don't know if OGL can do EMBM, or if it would be limited to embossing. As to whether or not Matrox will do something about it, I would think that will depend on the demand. There aren't that many OGL games to start with. I can't imagine we'll see any game companies doing anything with it in the near future...D3D is a different story. There are new games coming out every month that support EMBM through D3D...

[Sanjuro Makabe]

Correct me if I am wrong...but didn't BattleZoneII have EMBM support?...I thought that game was based on the Quake3 engine...then isn't BattleZoneII OpenGL?...and if we can enable EMBM for that game...then doesn't it mean that Matrox supports EMBM in OpenGL too?????

anyone??

[Kruzin]

Yes, BZII has EMBM.
No, it is not based on the Q3 engine, nor is it OpenGL.

[Corwin_Brute]

Most OpenGL games are based upon the Quake series engines. And I've read in an article that John Carmack does not like bumpmapping. So I think EMBM support in OpenGL is not going to happen any time soon.

And I'm not sure Matrox has the right to develop an OpenGL extension for EMBM : EMBM is actually a Microsoft technology they bought from the Bitboys. It is dubious that MS would allow such a thing...


------------------
Corwin the Brute

[Ansigod]

Right, i think that The Carmack implemented all that shader stuff and that newfangled (I forgot the term) lighting system because of his distaste for EMBM. Still would be kinda neat to see EMBM in Q3A though....

[Nuno]

G400 OpenGL ICD can do emboss bump-mapping. I showed it some time ago posting a screenshot of a slightly modified Nvidia OGL bump-mapping demo running on my G400... So that bm Q3 demo should run fine also in other cards.

Kruzin is right, EMBM in OpenGL would be possible if Matrox writes a OpenGl extension and of course, if someone codes a game that uses it.

[Sensei]

Actually, the GeForce does do bumpmapping in hardware and it's not emboss bumpmapping either. It's Dot product bumpmapping. It has some advantages over EMBM and EMBM has some advantages over Dot product. Just depends on the situation in which they are used.

Sen

[PdC]

How about Bump Mapping in Unreal Tournament? Doesn't it support both OGL and D3D?

[Nuno]

Sensei, I know the G-force does Dot product BM. But the opengl bumpmapping demo they released was using embossing. In order to do DPBM in opengl, Nvidia would have to write an opengl extension too, wich I don´t think they did yet. And,, what´s the point of having DPBM? Is any game out there really using it? And embossing bumpapping is also done in hardware, actually the G400 does it in only ONE pass.

PdC - Yes, UT is D3D based (forget OpenGL), but it is using a tweaked Unreal engine, wich was designed long before EMBM. To use it I guess the engine should have to be almost redone, at least.