Guru & Pace, and whoever...Seti @ Murc homepage

[JamesA]

I concur with Ant.

If you want Netscape 4.x compatibility AND IE 4.x, 5.x compatibility, life will be hard.

Netscape 4.x's style sheet engine is horrendous unlike Netscape 6's Gecko engine which is significantly better. So, I would advise Zyn to use Netscape 6 if he is not willing to go get IE 5.5. Warning though, Netscape 6 can be slow or buggy depending on your setup.

At {ts '2000-12-04 09:05:00'} EST, the site looks ok on a nVidia TNT2 running at 1280x1024x32bitcolor @ 120dpi using IE 5.5 on Win2K Pro (sorry, no choice, I am @ work). I have looked at setimurc.css, and the only thing I would recommend is not use logical/virtual values for font-size (e.g. x-small). Netscape and IE have very very different interpretations of x-small. You should go for sizes in pt which is very close to an invariant (but not always). Avoid using the px metric for font size.

But like Ant said, that means that visitors to your site will not have the choice to tweak/override the font size if you set sizes in pt, px, or some numerical metric.

Good luck!

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JamesA: Just a Dumbass MURCer

{Correction: If you specify font-size in absolute metrics such as cm, in, et al, it will be sort of invariant (if the browser was implemented correctly. Read this:
<a href="http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/syntax/units/units.htm" target="_blank">http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/syntax/units/units.htm</a> for more info.}

[This message has been edited by JamesA (edited 04 December 2000).]

[JamesA]

Ooops. Just saw that you were using &lt;font&gt; tags too. Font sizes &lt;= 2 varies greatly between IE, Netscape 4.x, and Netscape 6. I know that on Unix platforms with Netscape 4.x, sizes &lt;= 2 are UNREADABLE unless you squint your eyes and have a bottle of Excedrin ready.

So, in general, if you must, the smallest font size to use should be 2. Size 1 is like trying to make your readers blind (e.g. font size=-2). If you can, stick with CSS. The old method of specifying font sizes (i.e. &lt;font&gt; tags) is too difficult* to use if you want to maintain similar looks across browsers.

* Assuming you have no access to server side scripting; or you do not want to code DHTML in javascript excessively; or you do not want to branch/split your code too much (different code for different browsers) since it would be a maintenance nightmare.

Good luck!



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JamesA: Just a Dumbass MURCer

[Guru]

Thanx for the info JamesA!


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Join the MURC SETI team! | SETI @ MURC

Bad dog. BAD DOG! I SAID BAD DOG!!! Go HUMP SOMEONE ELSES LEG GODDAMNIT!!!

[Pace]

Right, thanks for the info James!

I initially done the site without CSS but I have been (slowly) converting it over.

I'll be sure to use pixel measurements then

Unless I'm doing semi-hidden messages:
<font size="-7" color="#cccccc">OS: CYM</font>


Paul.
<font size="-7" color="#dedfdf">

[This message has been edited by Pace (edited 04 December 2000).]

[Zyn]

Dudes, The resolution I run, 1280x1024 on my PHAT 19" Flat Screen Monitor.

This is what it loos like


Keep in mind, Im about 2-3 feet from my monitor, and tired/sedated usually.
Now, add to the effect that my eyes suck to begin with. Sooner or later, you get this shit.


Moreover, I have also had my fair share of webpaging experience. I usually code netscape html4.0 stuff directly with notepad. I too have many problems making all browsers look similar. I have ran into lots of problems, but I havent had one problem with the default text size.

Many people advise me going to IE5+ or Netscape6, but the truth is I really like Netscape4.xx believe it or not.

I don't know what these html compiling programs do as far as compatibilty between browsers, I have always coded everything by hand, but I can assure you that many of these programs favor one browser more than the other, almost always IE. From my experience.

Thats all, the Zyn dude

[This message has been edited by Zyn (edited 04 December 2000).]

[JamesA]

Pace,

I would recommend NOT to use the PIXEL metric (px). A pixel has different physical size depending on: <ol type="1">[*]display resolution/dimension (e.g. 1280x1024)</li>[*]monitor AG/dot pitch</li>[*]and actual monitor size </li>[/list=a]

The only metrics I believe would work as 'proper' invariants are pt and (cm,in,mm and pc).

Zyn,

The masses' preference for Netscape 4.xx over Netscape 6 or IE has always puzzled me. Can you please tell me your reasons? I have to wrestle with this everyday at my job and I still don't know why. Heck, I don't even know why people use AOL's browser.



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JamesA: Just a Dumbass MURCer

[Pace]

James: NOT recommending PIXEL metric!
<hr>
Oh, er, oops! I was just about to post a revised version from my personal space! Oh well, here's the link anyway, I'll alter the font sizes again!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.mc...l/hosted/seti/

See if you can spot my proud badges down the bottom of the page

(Note: I've only edited the home page and the style sheet, so the rest of that 'beta' site will probably have glitches!

Paul.

[This message has been edited by Pace (edited 04 December 2000).]

[Pace]

Well I've got all fonts using either points or mm sizing, only the tiny purple text uses 'mm' sizing and is set to 2.5mm - as I want this to be small anyway!

Is everyone happy now? (except those using Lynx/Pine et al

Paul.

[Guru]

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Join the MURC SETI team! | SETI @ MURC

Bad dog. BAD DOG! I SAID BAD DOG!!! Go HUMP SOMEONE ELSES LEG GODDAMNIT!!!

[Pace]

Goo to 'hear'

Paul.

[Zyn]

New page looks good dude,

[JamesA]

Pace,

<pre>.navbar { color: #00cccc; text-decoration: none; font-size: 10pt; }
.navbar:hover { color: #FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; font-size: x-small; }</pre>

The hover over effect where the font-size is changed to x-small can be distracting for many. Buy.com used to have that, now it is gone.

I suggest you remove the font-size property from your navbar:hover class. Simple color change or text underlining should suffice for hover over effects.

Other than that, well done!



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JamesA: Just a Dumbass MURCer

[Pace]

Oops, you're right - it shouldn't have been in there! Just a little copy and paste was done there. Fixed now however. Dreamweaver can't edit the hover and link attributes, I had to do them in notepad, hence missing it the first time.

So then, are you a handy web designer guy to have around? Let me know and I'll bombard you with questions

Paul.

[Ant]

Whether you want to get into a browser wars debate or not the fact is Netscape 4.xs font rendering is down right bad, I know from a great deal of experience trying to get the site to look the same across browsers. The problem is much greater if you are using Netscape on a flavour of UNIX, but there are well known fixes for this, well at least under Linux.

One way I've found to address the problem is to set font sizes rigidly using style sheets, this makes the apearance across browsers far more comparable, but it means that those that like to increase or decrease font sizes on the page themselves are no longer able to.

[JamesA]

Pace,

You are more than welcome to consult me regarding web dev. related stuff. I code for the web for a living.

Since I don't visit this fair forum that frequently anymore (relying on Greebe, and Jorden to keep me up to date), you can contact me via ICQ (ask Greebe or Jorden for my number) or via MSN @ fuzzy_j@hotmail.com

If I am not too busy (coding or in a meeting) I will answer your messages.

Good luck!



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JamesA: Just a Dumbass MURCer