T-2

[HedsSpaz]

Here's a question for you all. Which is stupider, the bloody draconian fascist American laws, or me for obeying them?(I'm not 21 yet)
It's decidedly irritating that the US government has gotten these stupid laws so bassackwards. It's not like I'm going to go out and get drunk every night of the week, or heck, even get drunk when I do "come of age"(well, I might do that actually, but thats not the point ). Instead of punishing those who do something stupid, they try and make it harder for the stupid people to do stupid things and in the process punish the responsible people along with the stupid people.

Ok, enough ranting.

Mostly I just wanted to bitch because I can't join in this conversation because I don't have any experience concerning beer or anything else and I wish I did, because I know that I at least can deal with it responsibly.

GRRRRRR....

Ok, I really will stop ranting this time.

[dZeus]

Hi.... You have to be 21 before you can drink any alsohol in the US? that's silly!

Here in Holland you can drink alcohol when 16, (I think official age is 18, but nobody gives a sh*t).

One advantage for the US law:
There won't be as many people who damage their brains when they are youngh and in school by excessive alcohol use.

All the disadvantages:
People first are allowed to drive, and a few years later allowed to drink alcohol! That's rediculous! many youngh people will underestimate the effect of alcohol on their driving ability, which will probably cause many accidents in the age when they are allowed to drink alcohol by law (Am I right?). I think you should first be allowed to drink alcohol, and be allowed to drive afterwards

You can come up with many other disadvantages yourself I think...

[ahartman]

Oh boy, here it comes.

I'm all for changing laws that don't make sense. I have yet to hear a compelling reason why people under 21 should be able to drink.

Anyway, Karl, if you're going to try Urquel, skip the bottles (you can get them at most big liquor stores) - find a place that has it on tap and goes thru a lot of it (so it's always fresh).

Every once in a while, I still like to get that little mini-keg of DAB...

[HedsSpaz]

There won't be as many people who damage their brains when they are young and in school by excessive alcohol use.

Oh do I wish. Underage drinking is a HUGE problem in the US. High School age on up, and sometime even younger. I have no desire to get drunk because I don't care to willing let go of my rationality for even so much as a minute. Unfortunatley a large percentage of my generation don't see things the same way. But thats a rant to be reserved for different thread.

ahartman, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why people under the age of 21 shouldn't be allowed to drink. However, in agreement with dZeus, I have heard numerous compelling reasons to not permit people to drive until they are 21. If the US would change it's laws so that punishment for DUI was more than a slap on the wrist, then alcohol consumption would suddenly become much less of a concern. Personally I like Germany's laws. 1st offense, 5,000 DM fine, license suspended 1 year. 2nd offense, 5,000 DM fine, license suspended for life.
Or how about Saudi Arabia's laws. 1st time, death. The reasoning, by drinking and driving you have committed attempted manslaughter.
If the laws were changed so that drinking and driveing really were bad things, then it wouldn't matter at what age people drink.

Admittedly there is more to it than that. There are many other changes to American culture in general that need to be affected. But a harsher penalty for DUI would be a good start.

IMO of course.
Ian

[xortam]

Lets get rid of the Driving While on the Phone offenders first.

When I was a high school student, the argument about drinking was "I'm old enough to be sent off to die in a war, but you won't let me have a drink?!"

[dZeus]

What the hell has drinking to do with dying for your country?

and about driving on the phone:
Why try to get rid of that 'first'? just get rid of them simultaneously!

[This message has been edited by dZeus (edited 24 June 2000).]

[Jorden]

To be honest, I think Dutch law should be changed to maintaining the drinking age of all alcohol to 18 or maybe even 21 as well. If younger than that age, then under supervision.

dZeus, you know "zinloos geweld" or "Unnecessary violence"... ?? Although all violence is unnecessary in my opinion, most of the incidents you hear and read about are due to excessive alcohol use by youngsters (age 14 to 20). Most deaths & wounded in traffic are due to kids, who just have their driver's license and no experience on the road, but they drink and encounter a tree or lamp-post in a shallow turn, on their way home, exceeding the maximum speed.

It's not that I agree with the US and UK policy of having 16 year olds driving a car (look at their stats of deaths among youths in traffic), but if you do get your driver's license at 16, drive around a lot in your car, and stay off the alcohol until you're 21, you will have more experience in driving, than all those Dutch and Belgian 18 to 21 year old younsters getting killed every damn weekend, ever had !!

Jord.



[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 24 June 2000).]

[xortam]

First of all, hardly anyone felt they were being sent to defend their country. They were forced to fight a war (excuse me, "police action") that most didn't believe in. It was an argument concerning maturity. If you consider me old enough to carry weapons and fight a war, you should consider me old enough to responsibly drink.

[HollyBerri]

You guys...!!!

Anyway, I'm outta here, see y'all from the other side of the Pond...

Holly

[Jorden]

T minus 11 hours Dutch time

[dZeus]

Although all violence is unnecessary in my opinion, most of the incidents you hear and read about are due to excessive alcohol use by youngsters (age 14 to 20). Most deaths & wounded in traffic are due to kids, who just have their driver's license and no experience on the road, but they drink and encounter a tree or lamp-post in a shallow turn, on their way home, exceeding the maximum speed

First of all, I do not agree on that all violence is unnecessary. If I had the chance to kill Hitler, I would have taken it (or the chance to kill Janmaat if he was going to lead the party with the most votes.

Second point: (about the kids):
that is exactly my point! I think most accidents are caused by people who don't properly estimate how alcohol influences their driving capabilities. I think that if they are used to alcohol before they will get their driving license, they will kow that a bit better.

And if you forbid people to use alcohol under a age of 21, I think they will be more eager to use it (when under a age of 21), if only because it is forbidden (you can check any psychiatrist book on this). you better allow some things than deny them, because it will take away the 'macho' aspect of doing it. That's why I think you should be allowed to drink alcohol before having a driver license.

And is T-11 in Ducth time not exactly the same as T-11 in any timezone? (excuese me if I am wrong, I have had way too many Grolsch already :-)

[This message has been edited by dZeus (edited 24 June 2000).]

[Compton]

If I had the chance to kill Hitler, I would have taken it

well this may not be a good example of what you're trying to say. many people believe that the war would've lasted much longer if hitler was killed because he made so many bad tactical decisions. of course if you killed him before he started the whole damn thing that would work but then you'd have to shoot random people in beerhalls. hmm... i suppose random acts of violence can be a good thing...

[Jorden]

dZeus, if you want to switch the thread to a temporal-time-continual-displacement, that's fine by me

I guess what you said is right, although you have to know that at the time, Holly was still 6 hours behind on us, so for her it was 17 hours, maybe?

Her flight time of 7 hours towards here might have screwed up some things as well..

Congrats, you have me confused

Jord.

[HollyBerri]

Oh, good going dZeus, clearly you don't realize how dangerous a confused Jorden is... bad enough when he's thinking clearly...

----------------------
Holly, learning about soc--- err, football, and deciding she likes it.

[dZeus]

aaahh.. confused?

another question:

hoe lang duurde de vlucht van Holly, als ze alleen naar klokken van lokale tijden op de vliegvelden had gekeken, dus zonder de verschillende tijdzones in acht te nemen? En hoe lang duurt haar terugreis? kan ze dan tijdreizen?

and Compton:
well this may not be a good example of what you're trying to say. many people believe that the war would've lasted much longer if hitler was killed because he made so many bad tactical decisions. of course if you killed him before he started the whole damn thing that would work but then you'd have to shoot random people in beerhalls. hmm... i suppose random acts of violence can be a good thing...

When did people think the war might have lasted longer if he did not live till the end? I suppose afterwards, after carefully analyzing his decisions.

The main question however was, if all violence is senseless.

And that is not the case in my opinion. I think there is quite some violence that makes sense, even killing (I do not agree with death-penalty as it is used in the US, but that is one example). But my point was, what I would do if I know about a single person representing a totalitarion goverment, responsible for the destruction of hundred of thousand's people's lives, and having the sincere belive that killing that main would have a significant impact on stopping that killing. I know I would, if I had the chance. (well, all depends on the situation, but if I would see the same thing happening again here in Holland, I would do anything to stop it).