Maybe this should be kept a secret, but...

[Pace]

Just a little point, although I realise the points you make Kruzin are valid I pirated Doom 2. I had previously only played a short while with Doom (1) and hated it. I have since purchased Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, Half-Life, Unreal (well, it came with my SBLive ) and Unreal Tournament. I think I might have gotten interested in the genre sooner or later but a copy Doom 2 has generated 5 retail sales. Again, just a personal experience, but a 1-5 ratio is nothing to be sniffed at.

I'd say though that I know 2 more buyers of Q3. I host a LAN game with about 8 players and have had players from a choice of 12. AFAIK not one of these people own Quake 2, Unreal Tourney or Half-Life - all popular games as you can imagine.

And, just a curio, how many of you people write software? And how many intend too? I personally might do, though I'm just starting to get into some small-time webdesign (you can check some of the first fruits ).

Paul.

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[Rags]

I don't buy the "There are demos, so there is no need to pirate for a good look". I have been bitten so many times by a demo that looked to be pretty good, went out bought the program/game, and found out that the full version was slightly better than the demo version, or was buggier than all hell, whereas the demo ran perfect. I have been pirating games/apps for a good 5 years now, and in EVERY instance I liked the game/app, I purchased it. Hell, I even pay if it is shareware that I find worthy. I paid for winamp a long time ago, even though I didn't have to. Every piece of software on my machine that has stayed, I paid for. All else gets the boot. Same goes for mp3's. If I like the mp3's, I either buy the CD or CD single. Most of the time, I download the mp3's to cd's I already own.

Rags

[HollyBerri]

Excuse me for interrupting , but it seems to me that everyone is overlooking something here.

This discussion is going on as if using a copy of MS Office that you borrowed from your office, is the same thing as using a copy of-- oh, let's say Pretty Good Solitaire-- beyond the demo period. I use PGS as an example because it's a program developed by one guy. When I bought the program I emailed him and he wrote back, as have a couple of the other developers whose programs I've bought/registered. These are people who buying the programs really makes a difference. I'm sure they aren't depending on sales to eat (at least I hope not), but it's easy to see that the overt support of registering/buying the software makes a real difference as someone is trying to get their career off the ground. I do believe in supporting them in that, so I will register/buy such software if I find it useful.

But let's not pretend that we're causing MS programmers to go homeless, or that id is going to fold because people d/l Q3 off the web. If we hadn't bought Windows 2.0, or Wolfenstein (I bought that twice), they might have died an ugly death, but there's no danger of that now.

Supply and demand works both ways, you know-- if the public makes it clear that they do <u>want</u> the product (by 'stealing' it), but feel that the price is too high (also by 'stealing' it), such companies may well have to find a compromise position that gets them some of the money they're missing in their neverending greed.

This only works for large companies such as MS and Adobe, though, not for "the little guy"... and I think that the distinction between the two is important.

What do you all think?

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Holly

[Rags]

I think that if you use a program, and find it useful, you should buy it, providing it's reasonable in cost/benefit ratio, etc. If not, delete and stop using it.

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Partnership for an idiot free America

[TnT]

HollyBerri, I'm one of those little guys, feel like helping me out.

[Ghydda]

I wonder why the issue regarding faulty SW hasn't been beaten to death yet, or even mentioned.

I do not know many programs that is flawless, some has more serious bugs than others. But commercials always give a perfect-for-you message to any potential buyer, but othen there's a catch.

A VERY good example is Adobe Premiere 5.x. This is a fairly expensive package for the "tool-man-Taylor"-type. Once purchased, it messes up your life for good (a very poorly written piece of SW -> instability & incompability), and all the issues with this honk of SW have been met with very little understanding from Adobe. Many many people have been screwed (no solution have been provided, no discounts, etc.).

If you go out and buy a toaster or a new car, you expect some warranty to protect your investment. What warranty does SW-companies give? I'll tell you: nada, zero, zilch! (I'm talking about Microsoft, Adobe and other big companies here, not Mr. Smith down the street, he often provides free upgrades).
I for one find this one good reason to buy 1 (one) version of a program, tjeck out how buggy the darn thing is and maybe steal the next 2-3-4 updates, just to get some value from the hard earnt money.

Sure the big SW-comp. offer an upgrade-price to the new version, but this won't cut it. Neither do I expect to have to cough up cash to get my radio fixed when it is under warranty.

There are some issues here that must be fixed before the whole piracy thing can be dealt with.

Comments are welcome.

Ghydda

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2+2=5 - but only for extremly large values of 2.

[Himself]

I think pirating is a lifestyle really, what I don't buy is that there are a lot of people who will buy the milk after they get the cow for free, although I am sure there are exceptions.

[Admiral]

I would like to start with: I use pirated software. Wrong or right, I have decided to do it and no matter what everyone tells me it wouldn't stop me from doing so.

From what I've read here the biggest concern of those against it is that if I or other people use pirated software the prices of the product will raise and he or they that are buying legal copies will have to pay more. Talk to me about ethics, that's what it comes down to, you fear that you'll buy the software at higher prices and blame me and others for those prices.
Well, stop blaming me and take a moment to think about it, maybe it's their greed that counts for the higher prices and software piracy is just an excuse to raise prices with even more than they're really loosing on piracy. And those that have high prices and justify it by blaming piracy are still the big companies, companies that have money to burn, whether they burn it on trials, espionage or disinformation campaigns to force their smaller competitors out of business.

[McRhea]

All right, all right, enough on the subject.

There are those that are going to use pirated software no matter what. Who cares what the reason is, pirating will go on as long as there are people.

Then there are those that will buy the software. No matter how bad the rest of the world is, there is ALWAYS going to be someone with high moral who preaches out against the rest of the "sinners."

History has shown this over and over. Of course not over software piracy, but over "good and evil" to paraphrase.

This is saying nothing bad about those that actually go out and buy their programs, if I cared about it, I would. I don't care about a lot of things. Pirating software is one of them.

Ok, since this is how it's going to be, lets just leave it at that, shall we? This is my last post on this subject.

[Joel]

Then I veiw you as one thing and one thing only.

A THIEF

But why should I care. You are the one who will ultimately have to answer to that.

Joel

[Vlip]

Well, very interesting thread down here.

I just want to raise my own problem.

I'm a computer science student and as a student, money is limited for me.

So would any of you object that me and my friends actually steal (that's the word) Win2k, Visual Studio,... to learn them?
Those softwares costs a lot of money and I don't know any "Student version" of them.

I warezed those two softwares because I actually want to know how to use them later for professionnal purpose, is it clear for me that I'll buy them when I'll get money from these softwares, but do you really think it's bad to steal those software just to be able to learn how they work?
It's the software industry interest that we, computer science student, know how to use their software, because in fact, we are the final customers who will generate some cash for them when we finish our studies!

Just my two cents, Vlip

[Himself]

That is a good point, quite a lot of positions available for computer folks require knowledge at least if not experience in using several software packages costing hundreds of dollars. You won't get to learn them from a computer science program at a university, in most cases they teach pure principles, much more science than practical application. So, the folks who take the 1 year IT course at Joe's computers for dummies school is going to have a bit of an edge.

EBay is great for the occasional deal on software packages, personally, I wouldn't trust pirated applications, I barely trust the real versions.

[HollyBerri]

Well, if we're going to be rigorously moral about it, buying software packages on eBay isn't much higher on the "theft" scale than outright piracy....

For instance, if you go to Onsale (now part of Egghead.com), an auction site that deals only with vendors, any software you buy is some kind of overstock that they're trying to get rid of, and you can tell that easily if you know software. Like I bought a copy of Shadow Warrior a year and a half ago for $7USD, and it was cheap not only because it was old (let's face it, even $7 was too cheap for the program at that time) but because it was that eviscerated Parental-locked K-Mart version that I had to patch up. You see-- overstock. Onsale doesn't sell Windows, and the larger programs the vendors sell (like the occasional copy of Office 2k) are not much cheaper than retail.

But someplace like eBay (after you sort out the legit offers from people trying to pawn off CD-Rs and crap)... well, I bought my copy of Win98 from eBay, and my copy of Office97 as well. I did a good job shopping; I got legit CD's, with the hologram and everything. Leave aside the Office thing, I don't know the licensing protocol for Office, but I do know why I was able to buy a copy of Win98. And that's because I bought one of the copies that comes with a new PC, and is only supposed to be sold with a complete PC, or at least a HDD.

Selling that Win98 disk on eBay was a flat violation of the terms that the reseller agreed to with MS, I'm sure-- and thus I'd say that buying such is also a type of piracy, if you want to be that way about it. So if somebody wants to jump up and call me "thief" as well, I wouldn't argue with them (but I wouldn't talk to them, either ).

The only benefits of buying such half-legal SW is that you can register it without fear, and get support if you need it (though I have to admit I was worried when I registered Win98 and MS asked me who I bought it from). On the other hand, trying to find a legit deal on eBay is like living in Tartarus (I hate eBay). The anxiety is not necessarily worth it. And of course, it does cost some money, although less than retail.

I don't at all feel that buying any such program on auction has any particular moral advantage (if we're going to be moral) over flat warez, and (depending on your tolerances) doesn't necessarily offer any practical advantages either. I do feel that if you d/l a pirated professional application, at the point where you have enough work coming in that uses the program that you can afford to buy it, you should do so. That's only fair, once you become one of the people whom that high price is aimed at.

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TnT, what do you do, then? Your best shot with me is utilites, but I'm willing to listen .



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Holly

"And Dr. Dre said.... Nothing, you idiots, Dr. Dre's dead, he's locked in my basement!"

[DentyCracker]

Stealing is stealing. Plain and simple. Do I steal software? Yes I have. Do I feel guilty? No. Do I buy software? Yes. The point is I do not try to justify any moral right I have to steal. Joel I am proud of you and the fact that you do not steal software anymore. I suspect that within a year or so I may also be able to buy whatever I want, in terms of software. Will I stop stealing software then? No, because I still want to spend my money wisely, and will steal if only temporarily software to evaluate. Does that make me a bad person? Perhaps in the eyes of many people. Do I care?
No.

[Himself]

"On the other hand, trying to find a legit deal on eBay is like living in Tartarus (I hate eBay)."

No, the hard part is to find a good deal, that is, a winning bid that's not higher than retail. I'm convinced people screw around with the bids if they are not getting high enough offers. I think there are more legit offers than not, the savings are more from buying used, not illegal copies. If you run across such things, report them.

There is quite a difference between buying legit copies second hand, whether the fine print in the license allows it or not and outright piracy. For every legit copy that's sold second hand, it was purchased at least once, when it's some download, there is generally one purchase, if that, and thousands of downloads. You can't pretend it's the same scale, it's like the difference between jay walking and hijacking a plane.