Auto Reliablity (Continued from another post)

[isochar]

"Gurm, Toyota's/Lexus's and Honda's/Acura's are the most reliable cars out there. Mercedes falls a little behind. BMW's are as reliable as American cars (heh). (Quick summary of Consumer Reports Auto Buyer Guide)"

"Actually the whole Toyota/Honda vs. Mercedes/BMW thing is an interesting topic in and of itself. Let's just say that the system Consumer Reports and others use to rate cars is a bit skewed, based on the price of the vehicle.
Also, it's easy for Toyota to get everything right - there's nothing in the car. It's EASY to build a PC if all you do is put a motherboard with integrated sound and video, CPU and memory in a case and call it a PC."

Actually, if you take a look at similar target-market products from Toyota and Mercedes, you'll see that the feature list is comparable and the reliability is still in favor of the Japanese.

For example, Lexus LS400 and E4xx series. Quite comparable as far as size, weight, price, features, etc. The Lexus beats it in reliability.

As far as consumer reports being skewed, I think I saw something about +/- 5% for the ratings.

I definately know Beamers aren't reliable. Several of my relatives and friends have had lots of major/minor probs. However, if someone were to offer me one for free, I wouldn't complain

[cjolley]

You'll take my '93 GS300 away when you pry it out of my cold, dead fingers.
chuck

[Paulr]

One of the problems, like with computer forum's is that people are quick to complain but not so quick to praise.
If the survey forms drops through your letterbox and you have had problems with a car you get the pen out at once 'I'll tell them about my car!' you say.
Now if you have had a good experience you either think 'I must fill that form in at some stage' and forget or you don't bother.
Two months ago I took the plunge and bought a brand new Renault Megane.
According to a lot of survey's Renault used to be terrible for reliability, over the last few years they have improved vastly.
OK so I've only had it for 8 weeks, but so far it hasn't missed a beat (If it's a new car it's gonna go wrong sooner rather than later)
For car reliability it used to be:
Germany - nothing can touch us
Japan - we aren't far of the Germans
Rest of the world - We aren't too bad

Now it seems to be:
Japan - Woohoo, we are the best
Rest of the world - But we aren't far behind you!

I do agree with a post over in the Hardware forum, a lot of these really reliable cars don't have as much equipment in.
One of the main reasons for buying a Renault was although Toyota, Fiat, VW etc all had similar priced vehicles, they didn't have so many things standard, ABS, AC, CD, 1.6 16V etc.
I honestly don't think there is a company you can call un-reliable now, it just seems some cars no matter what their make break down

[Alec]

I´ll praise, all right. I "inherited" a 1989 Ford Escort from my father and I just love it. If I sell it, the gain is very little money. I might as well keep it, as its engine is in great shape (it consumes the same amount of gas that it used to when it was brand new), it´s quite fast (1.4 litre, 75hp with 850 Kg weight), it has a nice, agressive engine "roar", and never gave me major problems. It has 105,600 miles on its back and only oil changes.

I love my humble car.

[This message has been edited by Alec (edited 07 November 2000).]

[isochar]

There are always exceptions to the rule, so *AN* American car can last reliably. However, statistics dictate what'll most likely be experience with a car.

Paulr, you live in Europe? Almost all the Toyota's here have ABS, CD, AC standard. (I don't think the 16 volt is applicable here in the US

Heh, there are still unreliable manufacturers. Daewoo, Hyundai, and anything else that comes out of Korea is right down there with the now defunct Yugo

Chuck, I wanted to buy a '93 GS300, but they hold their resale value too well

[Gurm]

Isochar:

He meant 16 Valve, not 16 Volt. And it's a silly term anyway, since virtually all modern car designs have 4 valves per cylinder, which gives a 4-banger 16 and a 6-cylinder 24. *shrug*

And... "Beamers" are about as reliable as you can get, considering they are the nicest MOTORCYCLES money can buy. Bimmers, on the other hand, can vary in reliability.

However, it really depends what year and model you get. My Bimmer has been 100% reliable over the past year. No problems of any kind. I haven't spent a penny on anything more than preventative maintenance. My brother's, likewise, has been perfect in every regard. One of my friends has two, and they are also perfectly reliable.

Now, the catch? We're all driving cars produced from 1992-1994 (well, except the new sports wagon my friend just got for his wife). And they're all 3-series.

The newer 7-series and even some 5-series have issues. However, one thing that is NEVER taken into account in these surveys is customer service. Saturn and whoever can rabbit on all they want about customer service, but they won't REALLY come out to your remote location. BMW will. They'll send a truck for your car, and a loaner car, out to you. The loaner car, rather than being some piece o' garbage, is a brand-new BMW.

And don't even get me started about warranties. You know how all the Japanese companies (and Koreans) are going on and on about how long their warranty is? Guess what - that's POWERTRAIN.

All european cars (in fact all cars, period) have 10 year powertrain warranties. I _think_ it's required in order to sell the car in America, unless it's a Ferrari or Lamborghini or something.

However, if you really believe that if you take your Hyundai back in year 8 because you blew a speaker or broke a radio knob that they will fix it, you have some learning to do.

But, if you bring your BMW back in year 5 with a popped speaker, a broken button, or just because "it isn't as smooth as it used to be", they'll completely rebuild the thing if need be in order to make you happy.

Now, as for the most reliable vehicles - old Volvos are the most reliable. The ones made from steel, with rear-wheel drive. I drove mine from Boston to Orlando with a cracked head gasket. It didn't even slow down. Just idled a bit rough.

When the head gasket went on my Ford Escort (a few years back), the whole car was junked.

And as for reliability... my Bimmer will do 100mph on 4 cylinders. I know, because I had two spark plugs let go on a trip. I made it all the way there, at full speed. Now THAT's good engineering.

Honestly, I'm not saying that Toyota doesn't have their processes down. They do. You will NEVER have a problem with a Corolla off the line. Nor will you have a well-engineered vehicle. *shrug*

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[isochar]

Some valid points, Gurm.

I believe that your friends/family experiences with *Bimmers* from the early 90s is due to a combination of excellent workers at the 3-series factory/excellent engineering.

Customer Service is also an issue with car purchases. But I think it's null & void when it comes to nameplates like Acura/Lexus/BMW/Mercedes.

As for the warranties with Korean cars, they have 5 year bumper to bumper, 10 year powertrain. What most people don't realize is how many times the car will have to be brought in! ie. An acquaintance of mine at work has a Hyundai Accent, he's had to bring it in to the dealership 7 times for various things in the first 3 months of ownership.

Back to the topic of German engineering. Yes, Bimmers have excellent engineering. The combination of sedan-like driving with sport-car feel (or is it the other way around? ) is amazing.

However, the Japanese cars have excellent engineering as well. (The new LS430 comes to mind) Although most of the stuff is copied from the Germans/Americans, the Japs do it better.

Hypothetically, if all cars were 100% manufactured by robots, Japanese cars would still be more reliable than any other vehicle. It has something to do with the way they engineer the vehicles. I can't be any more specific because it's not my degree

What I find even more interesting is the Japs' ability to make nearly the same quality product using American labor. ie. Honda Accord still has excellent reliablity even though it's been manufactured in the US. In contrast, the Benz ML320 & ML430 are manufactured here in the US, but their reliability is FAR from any other Benz.

[Gurm]

Ok, another monkey wrench in the works...

Let's talk longevity. I _bought_ my Bimmer with 100k on the odometer. I expect it to go another couple hundred thousand.

Volvo has a sticker program wherein you hop over to a dealership with your car and they give you cool stickers when you pass major milestones in mileage (100k, 250k, 350k, 500k, 1M).

I know several guys who have Volvos with a million miles on them. I know several people with 500k Bimmers. I know NOBODY with a 500k or 1M Japanese Econobox. And American cars don't even make it 100k half the time.

And you're right about the warranty. But Hyundai makes you think they have a 10 year bumper to bumper. Their ad says "best warranty in the business! 10 years!".

Frankly, I don't see how they can afford even a 5-year warranty on some of these cars. Kia, for instance. The Sephia is CHEAP. Well under $10k. Yet it has a 5-year warranty. If it has to go back 20 times in 5 years (and it will) at an average labor and parts cost of $200 per visit, they've just lost $4000 on the car! That's almost half the sticker price! Ouch!

And as for warranties, I find that European car manufacturers cover EVERYTHING for the full duration. Speakers sound "funny"? Covered. Car is a little drafty? Covered. My Volvo has had all four doors removed and extra insulation added because we thought it was a little chilly.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[isochar]

Gurm, this sentence you said requires a "duh!" :

I know several guys who have Volvos with a million miles on them. I know several people with 500k Bimmers. I know NOBODY with a 500k or 1M Japanese Econobox.

We agreed that you have to compare cars that are similar in features, price, etc. A Japanese econobox is a whole nother price class. (I do know of accord's and camry's that hit 300k w/o problem. I've also seen an accord with over a million on it)

All the Lexus's manufactured since the 90s are hitting at least 200k right now. Couple of my friends' parents have LS400s and ES250s that have 350k+. A Lexus is pretty much guaranteed to run to 300k...

[Ali]

I learnt to drive in a Volvo. It had 350K on the clock when I bought it (for $1000), it now has 538K, and the only thing to go wrong was a rubber diaphram in the carbie.

This is an old 1976 244DL/GT (one of 200 made for homogilation (sp?) for racing).

Then my father has an old Landrover that has done 1100K, still going strong. The carbie is so worn that you cant tune it properly. The jets have all been enlarged due to so much fuel going through them over the years. That car has had the hardest life you could imagine.

The only unreliable car Ive ever had is a 1991 Lincoln Town car. That breaks down every month or so, and the parts from USA are BLOODY expensive! The ABS has gone, the electric seats have gone, the ECU blew up, the boot lock died, etc etc.

I think a lot of the reliability factor comes from maintanence. I change oil every 3000Kms instead of the recomended 5000K, I change oil filters every time I change the oil, and I tune the cars every 3 months or so.

My family have always been into cars, and my father has 23 of his own (vintages etc). I have 7 at the moment, and my first trade was Automotive engineering (untill I stuffed my back, and worked out I could earn 10 times as much in the IT business).

The Jap cars are reliable, but it all comes down to how they are maintained. I think you will find that someone who buys a $100 000 car will look after it better than someone who buys a $20 000 car.

Ali

[Paulr]

That's a very good point actually.
I've known people who have had a little warning light popping up every time they start the car.
It isn't the dreaded 'Stop Now' light, but a warning never the less.
When asked they say 'Well it isn't the Stop Now light, I'll get around to it soon'
Who knows what extra damage they are causing, it might have been a minor fault when the light first appeared, but it will be major by the time it goes in for repair.
Yes European cars are well covered, I took out some extanded warranty on my Renault and basically everything is covered - nice feeling.

isochar:
That's the good old UK for you
Toyota's might come with all the extra's over in the US, but the UK spec seems to be a lot lower.
You guys all have automatics too don't you?
Us 'Stick shift' guys like more control
My Dad always runs his cars for a very long time, all of his last 3 were VW's, currently a Passat with plenty of miles on the clock - doesn't miss a beat, but he looks after it.
It might be showing it's age a bit now but it's his pride and joy etc.