Environmentalists piss me off...

[Brian R.]

Let's not quibble.

I was trying to make the point that gas behaviour is predictable anywhere.



[This message has been edited by Brian R. (edited 08 October 2000).]

[Rags]

But I do see what you are saying. You are saying that given enough time, eventually some of the cfcs will find their way through the layers of the atmosphere. Since CFCs are resistant to chemical breakdown, they have a lot of time to get up there in tact. I know that sunlight greatly accelerates the chemical breakdown of cfc's, and particularly frees the chloride atoms. So, by nature, entropy, given enough time, says that cfc gas will eventually get there. And the sunlight up there is particularly intense, causing the chloride atoms to break free at a high rate, and eventually the chloride finds some ozone that it makes sweet love with. Right?

Rags



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 08 October 2000).]

[Brian R.]

I agree with the exception of:

"You are saying that given enough time, eventually some of the cfcs will find their way through the layers of the atmosphere"

Thermodynamics says all the CFC molecules will eventually find their way to extinction in the upper atmosphere if they're not decomposed somewhere else.

[Rags]

Makes sense. And you didn't have to add that, I understood, and just kept it simple

The only thing that doesn't make sense to me, though is why we have distinct layers of atmosphere, some of the layers being made up of single compounds. These layers have been around for ages, and they stay there. Why aren't they mixed? I don't buy transition, the atmosphere has just been there way too long.
Not being argumentative here, just curious.

Rags

[Brian R.]

Sorry - If I am not precise, the next reader will flame me by pointing out an inconsistency in my logic.

"The only thing that doesn't make sense to me, though is why we have distinct layers of atmosphere, some of the layers being made up of single compounds. These layers have been around for ages, and they stay there. Why aren't they mixed?"

I can only speculate that the temperatures are such that missing gases are rarefied owing to a phase transition (to solid or liquid) or they may undergo reaction with sunlight.

Oxygen, carbon dioxide, and others are reactive and may easily be depleted under the right conditions. Just guessing.

[Rags]

I guess that kind of makes sense.

I did know that gas escapes into space from our atmosphere. And how it does this is by getting energized from the sun, and the atoms reaching escape velocity in the proper direction. I also know that co2 is one of the gases that rarely gets out there, because of it's relative heavy weight, and it's tendancy to be carbonated into the ocean (the co2 cycle, yada yada). This was the basis for my disagreement with the environmentalists, along with their lack of hard proof and measurements.

Not to stray too far off topic, or even be argumentative, but gases don't behave the same everywhere. Gravity has a huge affect on gas, Jupiter is a great example. But an even better example would be a black hole, or even stars. The rate of escape from these large masses are inversely proportional to those objects' mass. Some argue that black holes don't allow any escape, but I disagree with that as well (I think the escape is just immeasurable).

Rags

[Brian R.]

The differences in the examples you cite are with phase mixtures - liquids, solids or plasmas. Once you are outside of pure gases and have phase equilibria, all bets are off. Any changes to the system, such as temperature or pressure, can be minimized by further phase change to minimize the change and reestablish the mixture's composition predicted by the equilibrium constant.

An example of this is when you have a cylinder of liquified gas (ammonia). If you increase the pressure of the system by pumping in more gas, you will find the increase in pressure is smaller than predicted because the pressure increase causes additional ammonia to become liquid, decreasing the pressure.

[Joel]

I agree with Jammrock. We should be more concerned about the poluting of the air we breath, the soil we live on, and the water that we drink than the small depletion of the ozone at this time. If we take care of those things it may help the ozone problem too.

Joel

[Gurm]

Brian,

I think we have come to a consensus. In my opinion, our big disagreement was the AMOUNTS. I'm not saying no CFC's can make it up to the ozone layer, I'm just saying that not as many as the liberal whack-job environmentalists would have us THINK make it up there, and they're not the leading cause of the ozone hole.

The bid headline was "if CFC use is down, why is the hole the biggest it's ever been"? When in reality the hole is NOT the biggest it's ever been.

That's all.

But yes, ozone depletion is the LEAST of our worries.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Brian R.]

Any opinion is as good as any other opinion in the absence of data.

Hope you have an open mind. If this is as serious a problem as some would have us think, it is far from over. Hopefully you are right and this is not a problem.

[cjolley]

See, I was sit'n there at the kitchen table having a beer, and is struck me:
Those idiots who make thier living studying atmospheric chemistry there in Berckly and MIT and Cal Tech haven't got a clue. With their "computer models" and "mathematics" and "peer review process", and "actual measurments", why, just siting here drinking a beer, I can think of several fatal flaws in their arguments.

Give me a break.
chuck

PS. Talk about "Ozone"




[This message has been edited by cjolley (edited 09 October 2000).]

[Brian R.]

Chuck - Don't start

[cjolley]

Sorry Brian,
I have a bad cold. I'm not thinking clearly.
chuck

[Brian R.]

You're not the only one

[Jammrock]

You're all wrong and I'm right. CFC's are actually little gnomes with wings that eat ozone for breakfast and lunch, but not for dinner, because it's too dark. They fly up to the strasoshpere and dine on their favorite flavors.

Since CFC gnomes follow people around, they are more prominent where humans are, like LA. There they can dine on kous kous and tofu flavored ozone.

Frozen ozone is their favorite though, as it takes like ice cream. That's why there's such a big hole in the ozone layer at the poles...

"But what flavor is it?"

"Boot to the head!"

*THUMP! THUMP! THUMP! THUMP!*

Jammrock

[This message has been edited by Jammrock (edited 11 October 2000).]