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**Rags** · 22 February 2001, 06:35

You don´t have a f*cking clue about who I am, what I do and what I could end up doing to you if I met you.

Oooooo! Hey there tough guy, calm down. I never mentioned you. But now that you put yourself on the stage; you seem to think violence is A-OK, yet you kind of seemed to be harping on the US for their attitude on these things. I guess this is hypocrisy after all Calm down there, hero.

Rags

**HedsSpaz** · 22 February 2001, 07:49

Heretofore I had managed to refrain from entering this thread (gee, I wonder why?). However, for some strange reason I feel inclined to do so now. I geuss I'm just feeling irritable this morning (and I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet).

So, as I see it, this is coming down to idealogical differences in opinion on the way a nation should be run. Citizens of nations all around the world have frequently accused Americans of being clueless when it comes to concerns of foreign policy, foreign forms of government, etc.

Gurm and Rags have turned the tables and tried (in vain apparently), to show that most other countries in the world can't seem to understand America either.

So, for those of you who are not American, who ridicule our system of government, yet purport to have an understanding of it... lets here you explain your understanding. Thats right, tell me how, as you understand it, the US gov't works.

After you are done doing that, us USian's will correct you (and rest assured, you will get something wrong).

A side note to Jorden and anyone else who might not be aware of this.

The "Gulf War" (Operation Desert Storm) was not a war. At least not by the definition that the US uses. In order for the US to declare war on a nation it requires a 2/3 majority vote in favor by congress. No vote ever even took place. However, the President of the US is also the Commander in Chief of the US military. He can issue an executive order to send troops to fight in a conflict without actually issuing a declaration of war. Incidentaly, this is one of the reasons that Vietnam was so vehemently opposed by so many USians, we never actually declared war on Vietnam, it was an executive order. The last time the US actually declared war on a nation was the Korean war.

So, moving right along, Mayonaisse belongs on sandwich's (of the cold cuts and cheese variety). One of my best friends used to make fry sauce for his fries (Mayo and Ketchup). We ridiculed him endlessly for that.

Impact, I must say, that little rant of your's was highly amusing.

and then spend ten minutes genuflecting before my life-sized poster of Ronald Reagan.

LMAO!!
I just about died when I read that!

And one last swing in subject, this is a side note for all of you out there (and this includes Americans) that believe that the USA is a Democracy. You are sadly mistaken. Democracy is a myth. It's a nice ideal in the same way that Communism (Marxism) is a nice ideal. But neither will ever exist in large form on this planet.

Ian

**Maggi** · 22 February 2001, 08:16

Originally posted by Gurm:
Maggi,

Do you SERIOUSLY think that when the US and UK mobilize fighters from a European launch site that the rest of the UN doesn't know about it? Please.

Now what's this about ?

If the rest of the UN/NATO/World knew of that strike, how come that nobody admits ?

I personally believe that GW is under too much pressure, just because of the fact that he will always be compared to his dad.
Thus he will make wrong decisions every now and then and I count this íncident to that.

If he'd really informed the UN, there would have been at least a discussion about it, if not a debate with a majority conclusion/decision.

I have the strange feeling that GW was well aware that not many nations would support his 'executive order' and therefore he decided (I hope the UK was really involved in that decision and not only informed) to do the fast way, rather than having to argue with other nation's representatives about pros and cons about that strike.

Regards,
Maggi

PS: Do you really think that I'm lacking a minimum of education and knowledge ??? Please ....

**Gurm** · 22 February 2001, 09:20

Ok, let's get a few things straight.

1. Do I have an oversized ego in regards to my intellect? Yup. You betcha. That's what happens when you have this kind of IQ. I'm working on keeping it in check. Sometimes, when people piss me off, it can't be controlled. Sorry.

2. Do I think you are all stupid? NO. I do, however, think that SOME of you are critically misinformed. It's a function of where you are. It's a function of your news sources. It's a function of your upbringing. We in America are raised cynical.

3. You just don't understand us. At all. You don't get the American system. You don't get American politics. And you don't get our mindset.

4. I'd be happy to actually have some real argumentation. However, you must agree to leave your preconceived notions at the door. You must agree that when you make a misstatement and we correct you, you won't cling to that misstatement. If I stated that all people in France wear berets, because that's what I've seen on TV, and someone from France tells me they don't, and I CONTINUE TO INSIST that they do, I look like an idiot. And THAT is what you people have been doing.

So, grow up a little. You want intelligent discourse? Let's have some. But first you have to check your ignorance at the door.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

**Maggi** · 22 February 2001, 09:59

hmmm ... sorry Gurm, but your post somewhat confuses me ...

Originally posted by Gurm:
Ok, let's get a few things straight.

1. Do I have an oversized ego in regards to my intellect? Yup. You betcha. That's what happens when you have this kind of IQ. I'm working on keeping it in check. Sometimes, when people piss me off, it can't be controlled. Sorry.

ok, fair enuough ... thanx for explanation.

Originally posted by Gurm:
2. Do I think you are all stupid? NO. I do, however, think that SOME of you are critically misinformed.

so far, so good ...

It's a function of where you are. It's a function of your news sources. It's a function of your upbringing. We in America are raised cynical.

now here is where my confusion starts ...

What is the function of Germany ?
What is the function of German news sources ?
Why are all in America raised cynical and
what has that to do with this discussion ?

Originally posted by Gurm:
3. You just don't understand us. At all. You don't get the American system. You don't get American politics. And you don't get our mindset.

How can you be so sure ?
For me this statement is a clear sign of arrogance (maybe even ignorance).

Honestly, what do you know of Germany, Germans, our political system and our mindsets ???

Originally posted by Gurm:
4. I'd be happy to actually have some real argumentation. However, you must agree to leave your preconceived notions at the door. You must agree that when you make a misstatement and we correct you, you won't cling to that misstatement. If I stated that all people in France wear berets, because that's what I've seen on TV, and someone from France tells me they don't, and I CONTINUE TO INSIST that they do, I look like an idiot. And THAT is what you people have been doing.

hmmm ... how should I take this one ?

You start off really well (I'd be happy to actually have some real argumentation), but right after that, you tell us (who are "we" btw ?) rules how to argue ???

I mean isn't argueing the act of discussing pros and cons for finding a common solution (consense) ???

What if you were wrong at the beginning and GW really didn't inform the UN/NATO whoever and just claims he did ???

You didn't even reply to my post, did you ?

Originally posted by Gurm:
So, grow up a little. You want intelligent discourse? Let's have some. But first you have to check your ignorance at the door.

- Gurm

oh well ... how low can you go ?

Or was your post not even a reply to mine, but more like a general statement ?

Regards,
Maggi

**Wombat** · 22 February 2001, 10:00

I guess there must be a difference between intelligence and wisdom. Wisdom brings humility, and, well......

**Maggi** · 22 February 2001, 10:01

Originally posted by Wombat:
I guess there must be a difference between intelligence and wisdom. Wisdom brings humility, and, well......

Good point !

**Alec** · 22 February 2001, 11:19

OK, one more reply...

Rags, I´m not a hero, and you shouldn´t mistake national-scale wars with a punch in the face via internet (which I´m not totally against, since you offended me personally without even knowing me). I don´t think violence is OK, as I never in my life used it beyond the Kung-Fu gym. Besides, you were the first one to throw rocks through words.

Gurm, you know something? You are seriously confused, as you fight ghosts all the time. I started here with a innocent (american-made) joke to lighten up the thread and you took it seriously. That is not a sign of intelligence nor of wisdom. Then you start talking about leaving preconceptions at the door. Preconceptions is thinking that the whole world is against you.

And you know where you can shove up your IQ. (Sorry, MURC, I love you, but I had to do this american-style au-revoir)

[This message has been edited by Alec (edited 22 February 2001).]

**Nuno** · 22 February 2001, 11:33

This is the saddest thread I ever saw on MURC forum.

Enough said.

**impact** · 22 February 2001, 12:51

The thread is turning the wrong way. We need an american who sees what Bush jr. really is and is willing to share his opinions with us eventho there is the risk of being attacked by certain zealots. (Notice that I din't mention any names, did I? So it's not about you, do you see your name anywhere, zealot? I don't think so. Bugger off then... )

**Jorden** · 22 February 2001, 13:14

Joel said earlier: That may be part of the reason, but then again if they had not had those oilfields then Iraq would not have invaded them in the first place.

True Joel, as to the PART of the reason. Iraq (read Saddam) has oil enough, and might want more, yet he attacked and overran Kuwait because it earlier was a part of Iraq, and he just wanted to get it back. He just doesn't like democracies or Kings, who take care of their people, instead of massing all their money on a bank-account for their own. Or something like that, for who knows how Saddam's brain works.

But you might want to see it like: Texas says it's an independed country within the USA. All it's oil is for the people of Texas only. How fast do you think the US will send in the National Guard or the army, to bring order to that state?<hr>
Matt, I meant blame instead of blaim. And you know it, but are too narrow-minded to read it.

Matt said further: You really expect these narrow-minded individuals to really see that they are being hypocrites? They tell us we are being improper by stereotyping yet they just got done doing it.

That from someone who doesn't look beyond the street he lives in. Did you ever set foot outside your own state, or for that matter the USA, Matt? Did you ever try to soak up the life outside the USA? Did you ever try to go on a holiday to, for example, Greece, France, or any of the 'old countries', photograph the places where democracy started, read upon how democracy started, or maybe even watch Discovery Channel/National Geographic and watch what those documentaries say about "the old world"?

When I first read your commentary about narrow minded individuals, I thought you might've talked about the Arabs, the Muslims. But apparently upon further reading you talked about me, and about any general European who was in this thread.

I, for one, am open for a lot of things, Matt. A lot of things you might not even think about. That you might not even dream about. Yet, you can say from over there that I am a narrow-minded individual, just because of the couple of things I said in this thread. And maybe elsewhere.

Also by Matt: You also expect them to understand why GW Bush is president even though they don't like him?

Errrm, as far as I read in this thread, you didn't vote for him. So a question to you then: Do you like GW? Easy question from a narrow-minded to a god-oh-so-lucky-person-he-can-use-his-brain... <hr>

By Jason: But all the Europeans in here get offended when we make blanket generalizations about Europe, so is it not ok for us to get offended when you make blanket generalizations about the US?

Maybe that's because Europe consists of a lot of countries, Jason. As an Italian, he might be an Italian, talked to as if he were an Italian, in his home language. Go to France as an English speaking person, and you'll hit a blank wall wherever you go, until you learn to speak French (stupid French, as they even expect me to speak it in The Netherlands! )

I am Dutch. It says so in my passport. It says somewhere in my passport that I am part of the European Union. In very small lettering. It doesn't say anywhere that I am European.
Is that narrow-minded then?

Neither you nor Matt know how we vote for our Government. I bet on that.

Besides, your point 3 (3. You just don't understand us. At all. You don't get the American system. You don't get American politics. And you don't get our mindset.)... Which American out there vows to be willing to understand how the general man outside of the USA thinks? How our countries work, how our politics work etc.?

I gotta say, Maggi: HUG !!
<hr>
Alec, I didn't quit speaking to Gurm or anyone in here. I just am not on the forums every day or on the internet for that matter. With no flatfee, cable, adsl or mxstream around I pay for every minute I am lingering here
And Jason knows that

Jord.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 22 February 2001).]

**paulcs** · 22 February 2001, 13:26

Actually, I think I was the first to suggest that the US's Nato partners might have known of the attack ahead of time. I assume the Egyption, Saudi, and Israeli governments were informed as well.

I think Americans believe this sort of thing is done all the time. Allies are informed of "unilateral" military actions "through channels" to avoid misinterpretations and provide political cover.

It should be noted that many journalists here believe that this particular action was rooted in the Clinton administration. I personally do not like the current administration, but I doubt the president woke up one morning inspired, called Tony Blair on the phone, and a couple of days later the bombs began to drop. US foreign policy has been fairly consistant over the last three administrations, and pointing the finger at George Bush might be a little unfair in this particular case.

Personally, I don't think this thread was ever a debate about the action itself. Gratuitous potshots were taken which I (and others, I'm sure) found insulting.

I've noticed that people have avoided this type of thread since the American election. The fact that this degenerated into a nasty flame war was predictable, and I think it was poor judgement to start it.

Paul
paulcs@flashcom.net

**Ant** · 22 February 2001, 13:40

I have a simple philospophy, countries suck, religion sucks, the two things that get human beings fighting, well apart from beer, oh and football, and err women. Anyway things are getting a little too serious and Jorden asked me to close this thread so there it goes

**Jorden** · 22 February 2001, 13:40

I started it with a joke, that fell wrong, Paul.

I wonder what this thread would've done, if it was started by someone from the USA though.

And about you thinking "I assume the Egyption, Saudi, and Israeli governments were informed as well." you can shut the assumation down. Saudi Arabia has called the bombing a dumb thing, if everyone in the Middle East wants to go back to their living their own life again.

China sold ground-to-air missiles to Iraq. The USA is mad about that. Iraq has fibre-optics attached to computers, running between their radar-sites. They took over "something the Serbs did", whereas one radar illuminates the plane, then before a radar lock is made, it shuts down, and the next radar installation takes over, firing at the airplanes.

I'm sorry to say that not the Serbs developped this attitude. As far as I know it were both the Americans and the Russians. I've read about those tactics in books by Clive Cussler and Tom Clancy before a journalist made the assumption that the Serbs thought it up.

Reading books helps, I assume

Jord.

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