join me

[Jammrock]

The problem with Satan is he's a wuss. God kicks his butt all the time. At least you could have chosen a more powerful anti-diety like Hades or the Titans...or the Giants from Norse mythology.

Satan...??? Please

Jammrock

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Athlon 650
256 MB PC133 CAS3 from Crucial
87 GB storage from WD & IBM
Matrox G400 (it's not dead yet!)
SB Live! the original full retail, still going strong
Klipsch ProMedia v.2-400, the PC speakers that goes BOOM!
Hope Matrox releases the G800 before rebuild time, becuase the end is near!

[This message has been edited by Jammrock (edited 05 March 2001).]

[Wombat]

Jammrock, what?
By many accounts, Lucifer is as powerful as God.

Hades never did anything too bad either, especially compared to his peers. Most of the Titans were killed or captured, except for those that aligned with Zeus.

[Jammrock]

If Lucifer was so powerful how come God was able to kick him out of heaven so easily? How come Lucifer doesn't create his own planets and people and battle God's creations? Huh? Or just undo what God did, to really piss him off?

According to the Biblical account the only power Satan has is to tempt people and control a few nick nacks here and there. He's good and destroying things, but so is God (Sodom and Gamora anyone). God can also create, and according to the Garden of Eden account he has power over Lucifer. True, Lucifer is much more powerful than us mere mortal idiots, but God...no. Not even close.

And Satan is nothing compared to what the Greek, Roman and Norse evil gods and monsters could do.

Jammrock

[The Rock]

Jammrock:

You forgot to mention that Satan also has major influence when it comes to the pricing of Nvidia cards.

Bart

[Gurm]

Whew. A biblical debate?

First off... I (and I'm sure many others) find the whole "I'm Satan! 666!" thing to be both offensive and stupid. Get a life. Grow up.

But since we're leading there anyway...

Satan is powerful. VERY powerful. He was God's right hand. The best, brightest, and most powerful of all God's creation. The word Lucifer means "Morning Star".

However, I would WELCOME a discussion (in a different thread perhaps) over God and creation (I have some really interesting new thoughts on the matter after reading a number of very good books recently).

But a final thought. For those of you who do believe in Satan, God, and the rest of the lot. By _all_ accounts, Satan may be very powerful... but the NAME of God drives him away. Think on that one.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Wombat]

But by many scholars, Satan may be as powerful as God. However, he is still obedient to God, and is doing what God ordered.

[Gurm]

_IF_ you can accept the idea of a supreme being, then by necessity there cannot be anyone "as powerful" as that supreme being. It just doesn't work that way. In fact, if you accept creationism, then in light of recent discoveries in the realm of cosmology you must also accept that the only time God ever "created" anything was in the moments leading up to the big bang. Since then, "he" has been "shaping" events.

Angels, including Lucifer, must obey the natural laws. However, before you start in on there being lots of things which violate the natural laws - let me remind you that we understand nothing of the laws of nature as they pertain to the other half-dozen dimensions which we cannot perceive, but which we now know to almost assuredly exist.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[Alec]

For the ancient christians, 7 was a perfect number, because:

- 4 were the elements: water, air, earth and fire.

- 3 were the divine entities: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Satan was an imperfect angel that chose the left hand path, so he is associated with the number 666, the number that never reached 7. (I know that 666 is higher than 7, but that´s how the story goes). That´s why 666 is the number of the beast.


BTW, is that you, Master, erm...Joel?

[This message has been edited by Alec (edited 06 March 2001).]

[The PIT]

Or try this link Http://www.phhine.ndirect.co.uk/arch...p_orsatan.htm. for an Alternative view.

[Gurm]

Ant:

God is eternal. A famous feller named Al Ein-somethingorother once said that just because you don't understand something or can't comprehend it doesn't mean it isn't real.

If God created the universe, "he" must exist outside the universe. However, we cannot comprehend anything existing outside the universe. Therefore we cannot comprehend God.

If we were afforded the correct frame of reference, it is possible that we might be able to understand. However, we are limited to perception in 3 dimensions of existence, and a fixed point in timespace.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[bongo]

Satan should be America's role model. After all the only thing that Satan did that got him into big trouble with the Big Guy was that he refused to be mindlessly obedient. Sounds familiar to America's response to Britain in the 1760s.

Disobedience drives Omnipotent authorities nuts. Way to go Satan, he showed us the that you did not have to be a mindless automoton to some big guy with all the juice.


"Every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker. And every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger."


[This message has been edited by bongo (edited 06 March 2001).]

[Jammrock]

AAAAAAAHHH!!! I leave this thread for one night and it has become a giant religious debate. Odd.

As usual, all opinions posted by me are just that...my views on the whole thing, live with it!

Ant:

Who created God? Who ever said God was created? God is classically defined as eternal...meaning no begining and no end. If you can comprehend eternity your farther along than I am. The universe is finite so we have somewhat of a tiny understanding about it.

Bongo:

No. Satan should not be the US role model. Most people came to the US to become free of repression, whether it be monitary or spiritual. God is all about putting down people that repressor his followers. The US and it's laws were founded on Christian thinking and idealism, whether you like it or not. The whole reason the Europeans came over was so they didn't haft to think within the lines defined by 'corrupt' churches. And in my opinion, any religion that tries to limit the amount you can learn is not a church of God.

Gurm:

Lucifer means "Morning Star", but several translations of the Bible refer to him as 'a son of the morning', meaning he was one of many 'Morning Stars'. It specifically states that Christ was 'the first' and the most beloved. Without going too deep, Satan has power on Earth, he has power to do some nasty stuff, but his power is nowhere near the level associated with God. As you said, the mear mention of God's name can drive Satan away.

The moral of the story?

God GOOD!

Satan BAD!

Jammrock

[Alec]

Wait a minute... does someone here really believe there is a God? Wow...

It´s as easy to say that god exists and we, puny humans, don´t have the capacity to understand him, as it is easy to say that there isn´t any kind of god as we understand it. I even think that it´s more logical not to believe in god. I´m not going to believe that he exists just because there´s a chance that he exists and I don´t have the power to understand it.

I guess it´s just a question of faith and believing in something more than what science knows (which, of course, is still limited).

Regarding Satan, I found that it´s proven useful that it exists (the idea, of course), because it´s the counterbalance for purity, which I consider an hipocrisy by itself. Who the hell in this world is pure? The search for purity (whatever it means) is valid, but the assumption that on is pure and has the right to impose his purity as a commandment is the true source of evil and conflict, believe me.
Well, what do you know?I´m preaching.

Cardinal Ratzinger said the other day that Pop, Rock and Opera music are subversive - what should we think about a sentence like this today, seven hundred years after the Inquisition?

There´s one thing that I want to say before I die in flames (in hell )... all of the above is said with all due respect to all believers in any god or divine entity.

[Gurm]

Alec,

I choose to believe that God exists because I don't gamble.

Science teaches us that improbable things DON'T happen.

A whale could drop on your house tonight while you are asleep. It won't, but it could. It's just highly unlikely. However, improbable things DON'T happen.

The universe and life and civilization existing as they do is an endless string of highly improbably things. It's like being struck by lightning every 5 minutes every day for your entire life and never once getting hurt by it.

If there had been one joule less energy in the big bang, the universe would never have happened. Or one joule more. That's pretty damn coincidental, don't you think?

In the microseconds following the big bang, all matter in the universe was created. NOT by the energy cooling, but by an unequal amount of antimatter being created. This happens sometimes (observable in the lab), but not very often. It happened, and SO OFTEN in those first few minutes that it created all matter in the universe (because as energy changes to matter, an equal amount of antimatter gets created and it all reexplodes, taking all the matter around it with it).

Don't even get me started on the improbability of the evolutionary chain (and I _do_ believe in evolution before you get the wrong idea) working out the way it did, or of convergent evolution, or of the genetic code (which has so mind-bogglingly much information in it that it defies reason).

So, fundamentally, I choose to believe in God logically - because I refuse to believe that the laws of nature suspended themselves time and time again to produce the alarming sequence of random events needed to get us where we are WITHOUT there being a God.

Now, that said... ask me about God's role in the universe. I think you'd be surprised.

- Gurm

[cjolley]

Oh God, here we go again!
chuck