California Does *NOT* Execute Juveniles. Period.

[Joel]

That is a very touching story and I am glad that things do seem to be working out but it also shows that even the most loving parents can still have a problem child. That is why we can't lay all the blame on the parents. Kids have to be taught that they are ultimately responsibile for what they do.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 09 March 2001).]

[bongo]

The US executes juveniles/children. That is a fact Joel, just like Canada is NOT overseas from the US (see your second message in this thread). This is just another example of Americans being clueless about their own country. (how's that for a generalization Joel...you taught me well)

http://www.abanet.org/media/juveniledeathpenalty.html

How many states allow juvenile executions?
Out of the 38 states that have the death penalty, 24 allow the juvenile death penalty, either by setting a minimum eligible age for the death penalty below age 18, or by not specifying any age limit at all.

[Joel]

The reference was to California's law. And yes I do consider Canada a forgien country when discussing American policies.

Joel

[Topha]

about guns and cars: guns are made for killing people, and if you are bullied and you start thinking about what you might do to those bullies, a gun in the house i definitely gonna help you with the decision, a car in the garage is less likely to.
as for the 2nd amendment: that was quite a while ago, when there were (even more) robbers, rapers, murderer, indians (nothing against indians, but they raided farms from time to time) and so on, so it was understandable that a farmer, living somewhere way out and going to town only every other week or so needed a gun, but today its not really necessary.
about bullying: in my opinion, the high schools are just too big, too unpersonal.

[Brian R.]

Whoa - I hope no Indians are reading this forum.

Gun control - What a mess. I wish there was a way.

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">guns are made for killing people</font>

Total nonsense. Guns are made for varying reasons. The use is determined by the person.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">if you are bullied and you start thinking about what you might do to those bullies, a gun in the house i definitely gonna help you with the decision</font>

Back this up with some proof.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">as for the 2nd amendment: that was quite a while ago, when there were (even more) robbers, rapers, murderer, indians (nothing against indians, but they raided farms from time to time) and so on, so it was understandable that a farmer, living somewhere way out and going to town only every other week or so needed a gun</font>

NO. You are wrong in a huge way. Guns are constitutionally protected for individuals so we can protect ourselves. Not only from the dangers in the dark, but from our own government, or other governments should our country be taken over. This goes back to the old states rights argument of the time, and this ammendment was part of that argument. They wanted to ensure that, should our central government become hostile or seriously corrupt and evil, we would have means to protect ourselves. If the public is unarmed, it's a no-brainer to overtake the unruly ones. The argument that the government will always protect us held no water then and it doesn't now.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">about bullying: in my opinion, the high schools are just too big, too unpersonal. </font>

I agree. Schools have become way too impersonal. This is a contributing factor to a lot of problems today, not just the kids killing kids problem that gets all the media attention.

Rags

[Topha]

allright, guns can be used for hunting and such as well, but not the guns daddys keep under their pillow. as for the gun in the house and the thoughts of killing, i cant prove that, but im pretty sure thats the way it is.
this discussion wont lead anywhere though (same as with death penalty discussions or even with discussions comparing matrox with nvidia) since no one is going to change their mind because of the things someone they dont even know types into their computer which might stand a couple of thousands of miles away.
as for the protection from the government, why you got military?? and do you think citizens can do anything if some other country attacks??
i dont think that everyone should be able to buy a gun, and the crime rates in the us are way higher than in the european countrys (you know what i mean), and although that is not just because of the guns, it definitley is a factor.

[Joel]

Topha,

Ever see the movie 'Red Dawn'? That is a basis of what Rags is talking about.

bongo,

I read what was on that website that you put a link to and I will tell you that that is the funniest s**t I have read in a long time. It was obviously written by a bleeding heart liberal. IMO by the time a child reaches the teen years they know that murdering someone is wrong and therefore they should be held accountable for it.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 09 March 2001).]

[Joel]

I was bullied as I grew up. I had access to guns. But I never went and killed anyone. It's the mindset of our youth now days. And who do I blame the most for it. The news media. Because they make it sound as if these people had no other alternatives and that they are not to blame for what they did but someone else is. Hell look in this thread alone. People are blaming the parents, the schools, society, etc. and I'm even blaming the news media. For some of these psychos it is their 15 mins of fame.

BTW impact. A murder is a murder no matter what instrument is used. What the article is trying to show is why should one murder get more press coverage than another. In both cases someone was killed for no reason. And the answer is, Media bias. Of course we all know the media is controled by the liberials and they are all for gun control.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 09 March 2001).]

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">as for the gun in the house and the thoughts of killing, i cant prove that, but im pretty sure thats the way it is.</font>

Hehehe, you don't have any substance to back up your arguments then. At least you are honest about your ignorance of the facts.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">as for the protection from the government, why you got military?? </font>

That is what the framers of our constitution pretty much had in mind. If our government had become corrupt and got control of our military, they could try to come and take my property away from me without need/cause, if me and my neighbors are armed (which we are), we would have means to protect ourselves. We would also have means to protect ourselves from others in society and others not in our society who may threaten our lives, and I have the God given right to defend myself and my property.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">and do you think citizens can do anything if some other country attacks??</font>

Yes. I think we could give our best shot at protecting ourselves, our families, and our property. We may lose in the end, but at least we wouldn't be just standing by idle watching them do what ever they want.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">i dont think that everyone should be able to buy a gun</font>

Neither do I.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">and the crime rates in the us are way higher than in the european countrys (you know what i mean), </font>

First of all, I don't know what you mean.
Second, get some proof to back up your claims.
Third, even if this were the case, you would have to prove that it has any correlation to the second ammendment.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">guns can be used for hunting and such as well, but not the guns daddys keep under their pillow</font>

You don't know me or my "daddy", so you can make no such claim.

Rags



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 10 March 2001).]

[Jorden]

Reading something on Dutch Teletext here, and giving a direct translation:

In the American state Florida, a 14 year old boy has been convicted to a lifelong prison cell term, because he killed a 6 year old girl.
He committed the murder in 1999 when he was 12. The boy has been tried as an adult.



[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 10 March 2001).]

[SCompRacer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joel:
.... Kids have to be taught that they are ultimately responsibile for what they do.

</font>

And the parents are the first in line with the responsibility. There is alot of support for them too if they would go seek it. Teachers were overworked 10 years ago too, but when they got support from parents their level of involvement increased. Is it that different today? Maybe too much liberal thinking and not enough money to invest in education? Too many families with both parents working and not enough time for the kids? I don't see any relief in these areas so were back to the same question, what do we do?

I have seen people treat parenting like having a dog. Give them their own little room with a TV, a PC with games, a munchy here and there but never really talk to them, ignoring them and their real needs.

Those who speak in absolutes about "taking the guns away will solve the problem" are what is wrong with America today. It is simplistic thinking which does not touch the problem they are attempting to solve. If you do succeed and get them taken away, what will you do next when an alternative form of negative, suicidal attention seeking takes place? I can see the solution already, we'll take the cars away now....or just be content in the fact that less lives can be taken by one individual. Now that is comforting...

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And the parents are the first in line with the responsibility.</font>

As a parent I don't disagree with you. But what is frustrating is that we as parents are being told that we are responible for the actions of our kids but we are being abusive if we try to discipline them for their wrong actions. And I am not even talking about physical discipline. A parent can even now days be called abusive even if all they do is ground their child, because they are depriving that child of social interaction.

Hell I got whippings as a kid that now days they would have thrown my dad in jail for. But I think I turned out to be a pretty well rounded person and I never killed anyone because of it.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 10 March 2001).]

[Jorden]

Scomp, a similar thing to what you wrote, about parents both working and thinking someone else would solve their problem of raising their child, I have noticed up front when I was still working as a janitor at an elementary school.

Those people, and even their grandparents, really thought that the teachers would raise their child, with a bit of spanking even. Up until the director of the school had to call the parents in, and explain to them that their child was the school's responsibility only during school times, and that punishment would only consist of staying after hours, making extra work or coming back on the Wednesday free afternoon, and doing dirty jobs for the janitors (I could think of some )

People think too easily about childhood. "we will bring them onto this world, after a night of sex, but someone else please take care of them, and teach them morals and the things going around, for we are too busy to get our mortgage paid! ... ofcourse, after that time we're happy to spend at least one hour with them, to feed them, and get them to bed, for we have many things to do in the household and we can't afford a maid"

Or something like that... Children bring along responsibility. If you can't live with that, don't ever do children. If a child does turn up, take your responsibility, and don't you dare to fault the child's wrongdoing's to videogames, TV, or whatever you want, that is outside your little mind.

If parents don't know why their kid is so obstructive, they might look up the word parent in an encyclopedia Or ask a shrink

Edit: besides some typo's, I do agree with Joel as well !! Though I never got beaten with whips, just with slippers

Jord.

[This message has been edited by Jorden (edited 10 March 2001).]

[SCompRacer]

Times have changed, eh? I remember walking home with a friend from high school and we both lit up a cigarette, being really cool ya know. Walked past a woman who said "you ought to have a glass of milk in your hand." I said mind your own business. My Dad was waiting at home for me......imagine that, networking way back then.