California Does *NOT* Execute Juveniles. Period.

[Joel]

Whippings is a term related to the action not what was used. My dad usually used the belt that held up his pants. And it was always on my rear end and maybe the backs of my thighs depending on how much I jumped around.

Joel

[GinoCyber]

I remember in my days we had the straps in elementary school. If you were really bad, you goto the principle's office, hold out your hands, and you got 10 hits on each hand with a very thick leather belt.

Ciao

[KvHagedorn]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Reading something on Dutch Teletext here, and giving a direct translation:

In the American state Florida, a 14 year old boy has been convicted to a lifelong prison cell term, because he killed a
6 year old girl.
He committed the murder in 1999 when he was 12. The boy has been tried as an adult.</font>

I notice you didn't offer an opinion about this, Jorden (unless you edited it out), but the truth is in the details of the crime. If this had been her brother who loved her dearly, and they had been rough-housing and some freak accident had occured, this would be treated differently. As it happened, this boy was a stupid gorilla in the vein of Mike Tyson. He outweighed the little girl by 170lbs to her 48lbs. He might have been forgiven somewhat for not knowing his own strength, but the injuries he inflicted upon this little girl were severe beyond forgiveness. He fractured her skull and broke her tiny body in ways that were described as being as if she had been thrown off a 3-story building. He then offered no remorse, only pathetically lame excuses that only one so moronic as himself would believe (typical criminal behavior). Now perhaps I am a bit biased when I see an overgrown bully savagely crush the life out of a defenseless little girl, but I think he should fry. For reasons I have given above, I would be severely offended if society spent more money supporting this monster for the rest of his life in the cesspool of a prison than many good people make working hard in legitimate jobs to support their families. Let him have his appeal, let him have full access to the law, but if all evidence convicts him (the jury was more severe when they heard what he had actually done) then he should be executed. We should all be resigned to that punishment if we do murder and are convicted, especially when the killing is as repugnant as this one is -- the brutal, senseless ripping of life from an innocent little girl by literally beating her brains out.

The judge himself was disgusted at the outcry of support for the boy, remarking that,
''Voices cry out for 'justice,' but not for justice for Tiffany Eunick. ... In the court of public opinion, Lionel Tate has turned into the victim,''.

That public opinion is courtesy of those who think themselves possessed of the God-given right to tell people how to think.. the bleeding-heart-liberal American media.

One last thought: Consider this, and here is why I so despise mindless bleeding-heart liberals. If this killer goes free and he kills again, those who set him free are directly responsible, even moreso than the killer, because he has proven himself to be such a danger and the irresponsible authorities set him free upon society. This has happened too often, and it is the prime reason criminals have no respect for authority.. spineless leaders don't deserve respect.

[KvHagedorn]

I feel obliged to elucidate my opinion above. I do not despise all liberals. Indeed, I was once a bleeding-heart liberal myself. However, during the course of learning about the real world, I found that these idealistic notions which I had nurtured in youth were foolish and impractical. A better understanding of people helps tremendously. Ironically, to understand people, I have found that one must first understand animals. The lack of language and guile has given animals the unique ability to behave as they truly feel, and studying them illuminates one thing I had found puzzling about humans. Just like other animals, people have an underlying nature that respects whatever power happens to be in control. When this power does not tolerate evil, people respect goodness. But people sometimes can be ruled by their better natures to do things which are not for the greater good when you think about them. Indeed, Edward Gibbon describes the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius in this way, citing his only downfall.. "His excellent understanding was often deceived by the unsuspecting goodness of his heart."

Now, I could not damn anyone for the goodness of his heart, but where decisions and judgements must be made, compassion must be weighed against the greater good. The bleeding heart justifies all by passion, and this simply isn't good enough. In Shakespeare's dramatisation of Henry V, Henry is given the difficult task of hanging an old friend who has looted a church. Henry loves the man, but he has responsibilities that loom higher than that love. He is bound to uphold the law, and in a way, his friend has betrayed him personally by breaking this law. The respect his nobles granted Henry after this act was considerable, since he was not the above-mentioned spineless leader. And though a part of his heart died with the old friend, he had saved his own soul.

Understand that this world is not perfect, and there are people in it whose hearts cannot even conceive of the compassion you feel. They do not respond to these stimuli. They are evil, or understand only evil. As such, they view compassion as weakness and use it against you and all of society. Compassion is too precious to be worthy of such disrespect. Show compassion where it is respected. There is little enough of it there, and there is where it is sorely needed.

[paulcs]

Oh my. My thread about the niceties of California law has become the nightmare politcal thread from hell. Yes, we have a constitutional right to bear arms just in case the Nicaraguan army manages to slip through Mexico unnoticed, crosses the Rio Grande, and gets by Texas's National Guard, only to be defeated by gun packin' school kids. (I thought Red Dawn was a comedy until I found out it was a John Milius picture.)

Ah, the death penalty. Personally, I think all 170 pound 12 year olds should be incarcerated for life -- or worse! They'll only turn into that big 400 pound guy who insists upon sitting next to me on the bus. Fry'em all!

It hasn't come up yet, so let me bring it up: ABORTION! I think abortion should be made available on demand, scott free, to every man, woman, and child who wants one. And, as I alluded to before, they should be applied retroactively to all 170 pound 12 year olds before they turn into the 400 pound guy who insists on sitting next to me on the bus!

I guess what I'm trying to say in the Texas National Guard are a bunch of wussies that can't handle a Boy Scout troup from Central America and their drunken Soviet advisors AND DON'T SIT NEXT TO ME ON THE BUS!!!



Paul
paulcs@thetexasnationalguardarebigfatwussiesanddon tsitnexttomeonthebus.org

[This message has been edited by paulcs (edited 10 March 2001).]

[Joel]

Yea KvHagedorn,

It is a pity when there is more outcry for the murderer than for the victim.

Joel

[bongo]

paulcs...actually it was me (bongo the "overseas" troublemaker) who started this MURCS thread originally called "Killing Children".

But after I posted the message, there were replies withing 20 mins and I sensed this dialogue would be a mess. This is why I deleted the my original post and the accompanying thread.

We as a society are just not ready to step out of the cave when it comes to emotionally charged issues; especially violence/religious/political etc related ones. So I think this discussion should be tabled until we can all get along.

If we were a planet applying to Star Trek's Federation, Earth would be not get passed the written application stage.

[This message has been edited by bongo (edited 10 March 2001).]

[Joel]

No bongo, the problem with your first post was that your facts were totally wrong. We were only trying to make sure that the facts were presented correctly.

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 10 March 2001).]

[KvHagedorn]

bongo, how old are you? Perhaps you presume too much based solely on the way you feel things should be. The world is not as simple as you seem to think it is. If we were just to be all free and let people get away with anything they want, we would be in the stone age more quickly than you could possibly imagine. As to "Star Trek," I hate to disappoint you, but this is fiction. Fiction, especially science fiction, is often written by idealists who don't get out much.

[impact]

"The media's anti-gun bias" - maybe when your kids will get shot at by a freak from their class just because they got in the way, you'll understand why there is such a strong media campaign against guns.

Maybe I should rephrase the previous statement that guns are made for killing people: "Guns are made for killing anything." That's why it is not a good idea to make them widely avaiable. Those people who do not wish to ban them are usually the gun manufacturers.

And Brian, don't worry, I really don't think Indians care much about the soap box.

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"The media's anti-gun bias" - maybe when your kids will get shot at by a freak from their class just because they got in the way, you'll understand why there is such a strong media campaign against guns.</font>

The problem is is that in all of these school shootings no was able to defend themselves. Even the security guard was not carrying a weapon and he got shot too. But as soon as the kid was confronted by someone who could defend themselves he gave up. Same thing with the shootings in CO. as soon as they were confronted by someone that could defend themselves they gave up. Of course they did the taxpayers a favor by killing themselves.

I'm not saying that all the kids in the school should have had weapons but why not at least the security guard?

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 11 March 2001).]

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">maybe when your kids will get shot at by a freak from their class just because they got in the way, you'll understand why there is such a strong media campaign against guns. </font>

More children are killed each year in America from drowning. More American children were killed in car accidents last year than the total number murdered with guns in the last decade. More children commit suicide than by murderings.
And it's just this type of comment that plays on the heart strings to push forward the liberal agenda. Of course I would be very upset if my daughter were killed.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"Guns are made for killing anything." </font>

A gun's use is determined by the one carrying it.


Rags



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 11 March 2001).]

[Pace]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rags:
More children commit suicide than by murderings.</font>

So, we should just ignore murderers? Maybe guns get too much publicity, but I don't think banning them will do any more harm than they do currently...

[Rags]

No. I am not saying, don't put words into my mouth.

I am saying that there is an indication that the youth in America need some serious help, and that the media's over hype of the guns issue is getting out of hand. FACT: There are more school shooting/school gun incidents after the media blazes their torchs on one of these incidents.

Rags

[Rags]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">? Maybe guns get too much publicity, but I don't think banning them will do any more harm than they do currently... </font>

Ummmm. You don't get it. You don't resolve issues by puting people in in rubber rooms so they cannot possibly hurt themselves or others, just because they may commit a crime. You find the root cause for what is becoming a trend and address it. In the US we try not to step on others individual liberties when looking for solutions.


Rags



[This message has been edited by Rags (edited 11 March 2001).]