The thread was closed right under my feet, so ...

[Pelle]

Thundrchez, I think that's not special to the US welfaresystem. At least in Germany you get more money by making more children, and still the birthrates are sinking every year.

So I guess the American system is constructed in a different way that makes exploiting it easier, but still I think fighting the error in the system would be a far more worthy cause than the people who use it.

I worked in social services 7 years ago, which meant visiting handicapped, unemployed or elderly people and helping them with some aspects of their lives - which meant everything from washing them in the shower, shaving and dressing till up to doing their papers, shopping or driving them around.

And there was exactly ONE family that was obviously enjoying living from welfare, all others were more or less struggeling to end this situation which they found to be very humiliating.

And whenever I read crap like the stuff I quoted, which is popular with certain German politicans as well, it makes me go ballistic. People who generalize in such a way usually don't have a clue and should work a year or so fulltime as a nurse with those "crack addicts". I'm confident they would shut up pretty fast.

But I can speak for my country only; even watching ER doesn't really qualify me for commenting on your situation :-)

Ciao, Pelle

[Alec]

Going back to the start of the thread:

Coexistence is the most difficult thing in today´s life. Having strong ideas is very simple, almost everyone has them. People worry too much in having a point about what´s going on in the world, in their own society... but keep forgetting to spend some thought in better ways to deal with difference.

------------------
"I mock thee not, though I by thee am mockèd;
Thou call'st me madman, but I call thee blockhead."

William Blake, On friends and foes

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I worked in social services 7 years ago, which meant visiting handicapped, unemployed or elderly people and helping them with some aspects of their lives - which meant everything from washing them in the shower, shaving and dressing till up to doing their papers, shopping or driving them around.</font>

I think you are reading more into that statement than what is really there. I feel that what he is trying to say is that he is sick and tried of the Government wasting our tax dollars. I personally have no problems with helping the elderly or the handicapped. I don't even have a problem help those that are unemployed to a certain point. There should be a limit as to how much an able- bodied person can draw from the system. As for crack addicts I feel that things would better served by putting them through a rehab program to get them cleaned up and back into being a productive individual. But there still should be a limit to how much they can draw from the system. And at some point for repeat addicts we need to practice tough love and say no more.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> And there was exactly ONE family that was obviously enjoying living from welfare, all others were more or less struggeling to end this situation which they found to be very humiliating.</font>

A lot of that may have to do with the differences in the systems. I think the real problem with the system here is that you can basic make more money and have better benefits by being on welfare than what you would if you took a minimum wage job. For some reason the system is designed so that the minute you start working you loss a lot of your benefit and usually welfare pays better also. But that is one of the inherent draw back of a government run welfare system.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">People who generalize in such a way usually don't have a clue and should work a year or so fulltime as a nurse with those "crack addicts".</font>

I have worked several years as a nursing assistant and I do know what you are talking about, but I also know that we were a lot better served by getting these people cleaned up through rehab than just throwing money at them hoping they will do it themselves. Because most of these people are able- bodied and can be productive but they just need help getting cleaned up first. But unfortunately there will always be a few that no matter what you do it ain't going to change anything because they are unwilling to do anything to help themselves. And I feel that those are the ones that the author is talking about.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">BTW Joel, even though it was meant as a joke, I'd like to hear your opinions about it</font>

So there you go some of my opinions.

Joel



[This message has been edited by Joel (edited 04 May 2001).]

[bongo]

Joel; I am pleased that you find my opinion so controversial that you must close an entire thread.

You realize that by censoring people you only draw more attention to them.

ps...Hey Joel; why didn't you mention to the fine readers here that you deleted another message of mine here...may I ask who I insulted or aboused by stating

"I am shocked that a MURC forum would be closed without being able to state your comments. SHOCKED!"

why did you delete that one...you weren't even mentioned? What's next...are you going to ban me Joel...?

[This message has been edited by bongo (edited 04 May 2001).]

[Pneumatic]

I think that the welfare thing has gotten out of control. It's true that the more kids you have, the more money you get. What this has done is created a whole new generation that is dependant on welfare. I saw a thing on TV not too long ago about 2nd generation welfare recipients. They were raised with it as a way of life, so they just stayed on it when they were older.

I am for welfare being given a way to give people a hand up, not a hand out.


Bongo is an idiot. Go ahead and ban him.

[Joel]

bongo:

As I stated in another thread there are more people than just me that can do administrative task on this forum. And if anyone does any banning it will be Ant. Just read his comments above. If you contiune to have a problem with the way I am moderateing this forum then this is something you need to take up with Ant directly and leave it off the forums. As far as I'm concerned, if you contiune posting post that adds adsolutely nothing to the subject of the thread and are nothing more than your own personal bashing sessions then I will continue to edit them as I see fit until such time as Ant tells me otherwise.

Joel

BTW That e-mail thing you did didn't effect me as much as I'm sure you wanted it too because I have cable modem and things download fairly quickly.

[Pneumatic]

Joel if he messes with you too much, just accidentally post his IP.

[Pelle]

I don't think that a welfare-system run be the government neccessarily needs to be bad. But that's a different issue.

Concerning drug addicts / unemployed / homeless people: I never meant that they should be supported for ever; I read the original posting as if they shouldn't be supported at all (and I don't think that's a mean-spirited interpretation).

Especially for addicts it's a tricky situation; you need to really want to get clean, otherwise no rehab really will work. And most of the time you will need to completly change your social surrounding so that your friends won't drag you back down. I can understand that when your friends are all that is left, it's very much to ask for to give up. People need a perspective, a goal that is worth working towards to. But as always, every case and every person is different and to be treated individually, and this of course costs time and money.

I think this is really the difficult part: pushing the ones who don't want to change without punishing those who really can't.

Same goes for the unemployed as well: I knew a guy who studied chemistry, finished in record time, wrote his habilitation - and couldn't get a job, since the industry wasn't hiring (10 years ago). So there you are, having spent 5 years studying day and night without any private live - and some dork in the unemployment-office suggests becoming a cab driver? Another guy I knew was too lazy for school, got kicked out and happily lived in his parents basement from the unemployment-money. Is it fair that both got treated the same? Of course not, but what can you do?

Oh, and finally, I hope you didn't get this wrong - when I wrote:

> ... which meant visiting handicapped, unemployed or elderly people and helping ...

I certainly did not want to imply that you didn't want to help the old or handicapped - it was just part of my job-description.

Anyway, I think it's interesting that after leaving the polemics behind us we don't disagree too much, at last on these points.

Ciao, Pelle

[bongo]

Joel; I did not realize that you delete based on content...MURC policy does not talk about (as you state) "adds adsolutely nothing to the subject ".

Is that something you just made up? Can you provide a link for me that says moderators can delete people if they provide no value to a discussion? Who decides what has value Joel?

ps...to Kindeness! from Texas...I use a proxy server so posting my IP address would do no good.

[az]

Yeah, it's nice to see that you americans are not all complete idiots (just kidding)

And concerning Bongo: I suggest we should start being nice again, and Joel, if Bongo's posts are so bad, dont delete them: they will speak for themselves I don't know what kind of problem Bongo has with the US or one of you personally maybe, but maybe you shouldn't give him such a bad example, this will only fuel his anger.

AZ

[Rags]

To hell with bongo, he's obviously very uneducated.


Guys, don't feed the trolls.

Rags

[DentyCracker]

I don't know if he's uneducated, but he spews crap out at a rate of knots.

[Rags]

Well, from my experience, people who are filled with hatred for people they don't even know are usually uneducated.

Rags

[Sasq]

I'm short on time so I can't write all I want to, the Australian welfare system, has similar problems to the US or is maybe worse, we have reached the time where with 2~3 kids, if you have no skills and can only get a low paying factory job its better to stay on benefits - It works out financially better. The same with the helping the addicts there are problems in the system there too, more needs to be done to help these people help them selves. If anyone wants more information on the Australian system I'm happy to provide more.

As for problem no.2 with our little friend I propose we just completely ignore him, he's only acting up because we bite.
So I suggest we
1) don't reply to him AT ALL
2) don't make any comments about him at all

Cheers Danny

[Joel]

Normally Sasq I would agree with you but in this case bongo's antics have now gone beyond the forums.

Joel