?????

[az]

Well the laws do not work (they do, but not good enough), I agree on that. But since drug laws don't work too, should we just allow drugs? And I'm not talking about an occasional joint, I'm talking about heroine, cocaine, crack.. Should we allow it just because people won't stop using them when we forbid it?

AZ

[cbman]

I don't know about you... but I would hate to be the guy representing the government on either matter... talk about a job where you have to earn your living even for a polititian.

Bad Drugs. I don't do them... I don't want them... I don't like them... I wish we could get rid of them

PS.. I don't do other drugs either except for the minor alcohol abuse now and again

[Joel]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">PS.. I don't do other drugs either except for the minor alcohol abuse now and again</font>

Question is would you do drugs if they were legal?? My guess is probably not. And that probably holds true for most anyone who doesn't do drugs now. I mean hell look at alcohol. We have those that don't drink and won't, those that drink every now and then, and you are always going to have your few alcoholics, but you don't hear about anyone getting killed over an alcohol deal gone bad. Or people getting caught in the middle of a shootout between two rival gangs over alcohol territories. Or people getting shot down and killed because they may be transporting alcohol. I mean come the whole fallacy that if you legalize drugs suddenly everybody is going to be doing them is just ridiculous. Hell at one time cocaine and pot were legal and we didn't have the problems we do today over them. Where do you think Coca-Cola got it's name from. It use to contain cocaine instead of caffeine. Think about it.

Joel

[Jorden]

Anyone in here ever smoked pot, weed or whatever that's illegal in most countries these days? I smoked weed once, at a party of a friend of mine (who went to worse, doing cocaine, but that's another story).

I've done it once to try it out. And I didn't like it. He's still my friend, and I still go to his parties where everything (pot, weed, hash and cocaine) is being used, but I keep to beer.

I know that Holland is very lenient when it comes to using and selling soft-drugs, and I know that half of Europe comes to Holland especially to buy the drugs, as it is illegal in their country.
But it doesn't make everyone in Holland using and/or selling drugs. (I won't even go to wearing wooden shoes and selling cheese !)

cbman says "I don't think anything bad should be legal... ". Describe bad. Bad for all people, no one excluded? For if that's the case, the industries, your car, the public transport and everything driving or flying on an oil-derivative should be illegal, as it hampers certain people (i.e. asthma). I know this might be stressing it too much, but it's just an example
<hr>
The gun issue I won't go into, as we have our own rules for it, and some of the American style school shootings here in Holland as well. Depicting that no matter how good the rules, if your dad has got a gun, you can shoot someone you hate with it.

I'll end with a quote from Joel's original quote

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"For every fatal shooting, there are roughly three nonfatal shootings. Folks, this is unacceptable in America," Bush said. "We're going to do something about it."</font>

We will give them shooting lessons so the 3 non-fatal ones will be fatal as well?
It's just how you pick it up.

Jord.

[cbman]

Yep that's for sure... I wonder what substance they use now instead

I know and agree with you on the legalization bit

If people want to do drugs.. they will find them.. illegal or not

[az]

Of course they will! But is this a reason to ALLOW drugs and thereby publicly state that it is OK tu use them, that there's no problem with them?

AZ

[KvHagedorn]

Should Pot and Cocaine and Heroin be legal?
No.

I'll tell you why not: It gives people one more reason to stay away from them. If drugs were legal, it would be like officially sanctioning them. Tobacco shouldn't be legal either. Big tobacco companies are just legalized druglords. They make huge money from addicting 10 yr olds to their product, which often begins further drug abuse. Tobacco has killed most of my family. I have no sympathy with anyone who wants drugs legalized. It's a Fvcked up idea, period.

[az]

Yes KvHagedorn, that's exactly what I wanted to say. We make laws to be followed AND to show publicly what we deem right and OK in our society. So we do not allow drugs, not because we realistically think everyone stops using them just because they're forbidden, but because maybe we can prevent SOME people from taking them and because we want to SHOW that it's NOT OK using them. The same problem I do see with guns: A society in which guns are allowed shows their children that it is totally OK to use guns, and NOBODY can tell me guns aren't for killing. I don't say you teach your kids to be killers, I just say by allowing guns by the law and by making carrying guns normal you escalate the situation because guns ARE intended to be used aggressively and you teach your children that that's OK - like if you would teach your children that people with needles in their arms are perfectly normal and it's OK that they use heroine all day.

AZ

[cbman]

Very good point.. I agree with you too AZ...

Its just so hard to explain but you did an excellent job of it...

I don't think anything bad should be legal... I just think there should be major reform as to how things are handled.

Don't ask me how as I am not too knowledgeable on the subject (On the law side) So more than likely I am talking about stuff I have no clue of.

[cbman]

Bad... Hmmm...

Never thought I would have to quantify it...



You guys with your tough questions

I think I am going to have to step back from this topic as its got even me confused

I think the fact that my posts aren't either desciptive enough or clear enough (Concise I think it is termed) are really detracting from what I am trying to say.

Explaining what I am trying to say is like trying to explain fog to a person who has been blind since birth... without the right words.. its damn near impossible.

- I don't have any good reason to say we should keep guns and I think it would be good to get rid of them.

- I know there is a major drug problem and most techniques so far applied by law haven't worked too well... I have no idea or inclination of what it would take to fix this.



Oh well.. thanks for not ripping my impercise answers to shreds and misunderstanding what I am writing, its appreciated not to be yelled at (If that's possible in writing) for my sometimes lack of expanded ideas and use of sentance structure

Thankx

Charles

[Joel]

I think some of y'all may have taken what I said the wrong way. I'm not for the legalization of all drugs because some of them are merely poisons and should be treated that way. The effects that a person gets from them is because of the body's reaction to the poison and nothing more. But then again alcohol is also a poison, oh well I guess it should be illegal too. How many people here have heard of or knew someone who literal drank themselves to death, in other words poisoned themselves? I know of several. Now, how many people here have heard of or knew someone that smoked (pot that is) themselves to death? Hmmmmm.

Joel

[cbman]

I have heard of one guy... he asphixiated himself when he passed out in room he had made air tight to hot box

But you are right I don't know any people who have toked to death under normal circumstances but I have 1 friend who died of alcohol poisoning and a few others who have had close calls

Its really a perplexing problem

EDIT : I Know I said I wouldn't write more.. but this thread is interesting enough to pull me back... good or bad.. I don't know... and BTW.. I don't Smoke or Toke.. but "Did" Drink Fairly Heavily during college... I haven't had more than a one or two beers the few nights in the past few months that I have gone out... I drive alot and bringing the car to the bar helps keep me sober (that plus a fiancee that keeps me in line.. Thanx Babe)



[This message has been edited by cbman (edited 17 May 2001).]

[KvHagedorn]

My definition of bad drug-wise is something that alters your personality.. so you become almost a different person, or something that enslaves you into threatening your life by addiction.

[cbman]

I like the way you put that Kv

Hope you don't mind if I borrow it

[Jorden]

Cbman, I never wanted to grill you or for you to leave this thread. If anything I said came out wrong for you, you have my sincere apologies. Just think I'm Dutch

Joel, I know of a couple of people who drank themselves to dead, even of people with more alcohol in their bloodstream than blood and surviving it
All bad things can kill you. It's not necessary that they kill you, but they can.
I believe that's why people use alcohol, tobacco and drugs, even when they know they are lethal to humans.

Jord.