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**Guru** · 1 June 2001, 07:06

Originally posted by Kindness!:
Unfortunately people like Guru only like to focus on the bad.

What kind of people is that? Who is geting personal here?

az · 1 June 2001, 07:07

Originally posted by Gurm:
You (and several other Euro-dorks) fail to understand our concept of freedom. We fail to understand your willingness to be a docile sheep and let your government push you around.

While I understand you don't want to be offended just because you're an American, I don't want to be offended just because I'm a European. I don't want to argue and I don't want this to become yet another "yelling-at-a-country"-topic, but you just offended me

AZ

**Guru** · 1 June 2001, 07:19

Guru,

Let's not get started on the "dumb things country X does" topic.

That was not my intetion! I just think that the things that did (or did not) happen in that article was sick and find it strange that some (not mentioning any names)thinks that it is OK!

I could come up with a dozen examples of commonplace occurences in YOUR country that would shock, offend, and upset the majority of Americans.

I would like to here them! And NO I will not be offended by it! I think that everyone should have a right to have an opinion about "things" like that!

But we've been over this before, haven't we? You (and several other Euro-dorks) fail to understand our concept of freedom. We fail to understand your willingness to be a docile sheep and let
your government push you around.

I don't think our goverment is pushing us around here in Finland!
Hey at least we have a working vouting system over here! Meaning that the person that gets the most votes wins!

So let's leave it, shall we? You won't convince me to give up my guns and tough-love programs, and I won't convince you that you should be allowed to keep more than 50% of what you earn.

- Gurm

OK so I will not try to convince you to give up you'r guns (can I keep mine as well?)! And I get to keep more than 50% that I earn(Witch I do )!

**Gurm** · 1 June 2001, 07:35

Az,

Sorry you felt offended. Not all Europeans have to be included in the class of people that are "Euro-dorks", just as not all homosexuals are "flamers" (but some certainly are, and other homosexuals are just as ashamed of and horrified by them as heterosexuals are!).

However, I feel justified. Since _I_ am obviously a TERRIBLE PERSON for not thinking it's out of line to make a juvenile delinquent into some big inmate's bitch for the day if it helps straighten them out.

But this harkens back to our discussion on guns and freedoms, doesn't it?

The point in fact is that many people from Europe who participate in this forum don't live in the real world (or as the gangleader in "The Crow" called it... the REALLY REAL WORLD).

In the REAL world, people get hurt. In the REAL world, muggers beat up pedestrians sometimes. In the REAL world, burglary happens. In the REAL world, when someone breaks into your home, the police sometimes DON'T show up in time. In the REAL world, many of us have lost someone we love due to violence, or the inadequate protection of law enforcement.

And it isn't just America. I know I'm diverging to a different thread, but there are those of you from Europe that would have us believe that nobody rapes anyone in Europe. Or robs them with a weapon. Or kills them. And it's just NOT ****ING TRUE.

Bad shit happens. To everyone around the world. And the Europeans on these forums (not personally you, az) would like us to believe that it ONLY happens in America. That shocking terrible things ONLY happen here. That what THEY feel are draconian measures taken for prevention or punishment ONLY happen here, and shouldn't happen ANYWHERE, because they are only necessary here.

Well, I'm offended by the entire concept. I'm offended by the concept that I'm a less cultured person than the lot of you. I'm offended by the concept that you feel somehow superior because you DON'T have guns, and DON'T have tough-love programs, and DON'T have all of these things which supposedly make America so damn terrible.

And I'm offended by the international community's badmouthing of the USA lately. We want a missile shield. WHY is that bad? It's only bad because then nobody can shoot missiles at us, right? But let's face it... nobody wants to bomb France or Switzerland or Italy anymore. But there are a hundred terrorist groups, many of whom could buy nuclear warheads, that would LOVE to kill every last one of US.

Yeah, I'm getting a bit nationalistic. But I get pretty pissed off about this shit. The UN decries abuses of human rights in <country X>. So the USA, WITH THE AID OF OTHER COUNTRIES, sends our men to DIE in the name of preserving those human rights. And what do we get? We get the international community shitting all over us for it.

"You Americans, always bullying everyone, always abusing your power..."

Well how about this. Next time y'all get in the middle of a ****ing land war, we'll stay out of it, ok? Next time a dictator rolls across EVERY SINGLE ****ING ONE of your countries, we'll just stay home and watch.

The United States just got voted off the UN subcommittee for Human Rights. Why? Because we didn't kiss enough ass, and we put up a missile shield.

But France, where the authorities can lock you up and sell your property because they don't like your religion... THEY are on the Human Rights Committee. China, who kills their own people for DARING to speak out against a corrupt fascist regime... THEY are on the committee.

But WE'RE the bad guys.

So... to bring this all back to our original topic...

Yes. We drag kids through prisons and let them be moderately manhandled.

BAD kids.

Kids that would otherwise graduate high school and begin a career robbing liquor stores and mugging joggers.

Kids that will most likely end up in that jail, as that inmate's bitch, ANYWAY.

And SOME of them get so goddamned scared by it that they DON'T rob liquor stores and mug joggers. And those kids DON'T end up as some inmate's bitch.

If you had a choice between allowing your child to be hurt once, or allowing that child to live a life of crime, go to jail, and be put through that experience for years on end... what would you choose?

And yes, I know there are a few of you that will try to weasel out of this. So let me further qualify it. You have EXACTLY two choices.

Choice 1: Volunteer your child to be spanked, beaten, humiliated, embarrased, yelled at, and frightened. Maybe even molested. For a single day.

Choice 2: Guarantee that child 20 years of hard time in a prison where they WILL be raped, beaten, and even tortured for the entire 20 years.

You may not pick a different choice. Tell me which you prefer?

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

**Gurm** · 1 June 2001, 07:40

I don't think our goverment is pushing us around here in Finland!
Hey at least we have a working vouting system over here! Meaning that the person that gets the most votes wins!

Once again, a wonderchild from Europe failing to understand the American electoral process.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WIN THE POPULAR VOTE. HOW MANY ****ING TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY IT?

We have a system. It works. It's fair. Sometimes it gets a little dicey. That's why we have the system.

Direct popular votes would be wonderful. Until recently it was not technologically feasible. Consider please that the City of New York has more people in it than your entire country, Guru.

If we as a people decide that we WANT popular elections back, we may vote them back in. So far, nobody has expressed any interest in doing so.

You have popular elections. More power to ya.

We do NOT. Cope.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[This message has been edited by Gurm (edited 01 June 2001).]

**Guru** · 1 June 2001, 07:56

The point in fact is that many people from Europe who participate in this forum don't live in the real world (or as the gangleader in "The Crow" called it... the REALLY REAL WORLD).

And we are damned proud of it to!

I think that if the USA would have a working goverment they would not have as much troubles with the things you mentioned above! Why don't they just spend more time and resources to "fix" the problems in there own country insted of trying to do it in others?

And no I do not think that you are the only country with these problems (OK I know you are not)!

**CHHAS** · 1 June 2001, 08:04

Originally posted by Gurm:
We want a missile shield. WHY is that bad? It's only bad because then nobody can shoot missiles at us, right? But let's face it... nobody wants to bomb France or Switzerland or Italy anymore. But there are a hundred terrorist groups, many of whom could buy nuclear warheads, that would LOVE to kill every last one of US.

I didn't really want to involve myself in this thread, as it reeks of a topic already beaten to death so many times I'm surpriced it pops up again

But you had to mention the missile shield, didn't you ?
As far as I'm concerned that shield is good for one thing, and one thing only, to be able to say to the rest of the world: 'We can bomb the living crap out of you, and you can't do a damn thing about it.'
You might argue that the US is capable of that already, but what's the need for the missile shield then ?
Does it really surprice you that much that the rest of the world are apprehensive about the US furthering it's military superiority ?
How would the US feel if the Chineese or the Russians were building a similar shield ?
And the fact that you want to put part of the shield on Danish territory (Greenland) really ticks me off. If you want to build a shield, build the damn thing, but build it on US territory!

[This message has been edited by CHHAS (edited 01 June 2001).]

**Guru** · 1 June 2001, 08:18

Originally posted by CHHAS:
[B If you want to build a shield, build the damn thing, but build it on US territory!
[/B]

**ahartman** · 1 June 2001, 08:47

Gurm,

Don't even come close to assuming you speak for me or anyone else. "We" don't want a missle shield. "We" don't want a $1.3 trillion tax cut. "We" don't want drilling in Alaskan wilderness.

As for your choices in dealing with problem children, how about this choice: BE A GOOD PARENT SO YOUR KIDS DON'T GET IN THAT POSITION.

Choice 1: Volunteer your child to be spanked, beaten, humiliated, embarrased, yelled at, and frightened. Maybe even molested. For a single day.

I volunteer your child to be the first in that pilot program. They'll only be molestsed once or twice in a single day. Doesn't seem like such a good idea anymore, does it.

Stop being such a pompus ass who assumes you speak for every American.

You're not always right and I find you every bit (more, actually) as offensive as Bongo - who was bounced from the forums for being 'anti-American'.

**Guru** · 1 June 2001, 08:58

Well said ahartman!

**Gurm** · 1 June 2001, 09:40

The thought, you see, is that your kid wouldn't NEED to be in that program if you weren't a completely inept parent. Unfortunately, for reasons well beyond the scope of this thread, there are quite a lot of people running around in this country producing offspring they can't, won't, or don't want to deal with.

And I'm sorry you find me offensive. You're right, not everyone wants a missile shield. Not everyone wants to fight in wars. But we have this system for a reason. If MOST of us really don't want something, it tends to go away (there are exceptions, of course).

As for tax cuts, that's an entirely different story and let's PLEASE not get into it.

I'm sorry you feel the need to lump me in with Bongo. I actually happen to understand the positions of the Europeans. However, since they are obviously incapable of understanding the "typical American" mindset, I find it necessary to take on that persona. Can you follow that?

As for you Guru, I guarantee you that bad things happen where you live, too. If you want to go on pretending that they don't, that's fine.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

**Helevitia** · 1 June 2001, 09:42

As for your choices in dealing with problem children, how about this choice: BE A GOOD PARENT SO YOUR KIDS DON'T GET IN THAT POSITION.

How about the good parent who tried extremely hard but the kid who still hung out with the wrong people, continued down the path with drugs and such? You could debate this over and over, the point he was trying to make is, if you came down to that choice, you'd be a liar if you chose #2.

Dave

**HollyBerri** · 1 June 2001, 10:02

Originally posted by Gurm:

just as not all homosexuals are "flamers" (but some certainly are, and other homosexuals are just as ashamed of and horrified by them as heterosexuals are!).

This seems to imply that being "ashamed of" and "horrified by" flaming queers (and leather dykes) is the "proper" response.

If you think that queers find such predjudice acceptable, even within our own ranks, you clearly don't know us very well.

Or just what do you think "Gay Pride" is about, anyway? I can tell you it's about accepting all of us, not just the "lipstick lesbians" and the "straight-appearing" gay men. It ain't easy-- transsexuals are having a particularly hard time at the moment-- but we try. Hard.

So you can take your "shame" and "horror" and shove it where the sun don't shine, thanks ever so.

Originally posted by Gurm:

many people from Europe who participate in this forum don't live in the real world (or as the gangleader in "The Crow" called it... the REALLY REAL WORLD).

Gee, last time I looked at a world map (this afternoon, actually; maps are posted at several locations around my school) the U.S. comprised some 2/3 of one of this planet's seven continents.

Seems to me you're a bit outnumbered if you want to say that U.S. conditions comprise the "really real world".

I could go on about how I have watched the news here for a year, and it's a joy to see, as the news is all about the weather, and accidents and maybe a strike, political issues on the table, the foot and mouth disease control efforts, and the Crown Prince's engagement and wedding plans.

No shootings by:

gangs, either intentionally or unintentionally;
people who wanted revenge on their boss and so killed 10 other people as well;
jilted lovers who shot the former object of their affection;
"nationalists";
terrorists;
children who got their parent's gun and had an accident;
children who got a gun and shot up their schoolmates;
people who shot someone to get closer to an unattainable object (that object being Jodie Foster or John Lennon, respectively);
cops;
predjudiced people (gay-bashers, racists, sexists who feel a woman is getting "out of hand");
people who want vengeance on the predjudiced person;
religious fanatics;
I could go on, but my fingers are cramping.

If your "real" world contains that, and mine does not, then with all due respect, you can keep your real world, because this world of dreams is a lot bigger, a lot nicer (despite being full of "Euro-dorks"), and seems to work pretty good without torturing children to "deter" them.

But I wish you luck, nonetheless. God knows that a society in such crisis needs it....

Originally posted by Kindness!:

For people that think Americans are so stupid, you guys sure spend a lot of time thinking about the US.

I think I know why that is, but that's a whole 'nother tale.....

--------------------------------
Holly

[This message has been edited by HollyBerri (edited 01 June 2001).]

**Gurm** · 1 June 2001, 10:09

Oh for crying out loud Holly, you know what I meant. But to explain further, because perhaps I was a little peeved earlier...

-----

No, it is NOT acceptable behavior for ANYONE to run up to you on the street, grab your ass, and make crude sexual comments, all the while affecting a speech impediment and nancing about. I'm not talking about just flamboyance here, I'm talking about social unacceptability. I'm talking about the sort of people who come up to me on the street (and YES this has actually happened) and said "WHY DO YOU HATE ME BECAUSE I'M GAY?"

My only response is "I don't hate you because you're gay. I dislike you because you run up to a stranger on the street and say WHY DO YOU HATE ME BECAUSE I'M GAY?"

----------

As for the really real world comment... The Netherlands isn't perfect. I'm sure it's nice, and I know you like it there, but please don't try to pretend that nobody there is a bad person. Europe is full of sickos too, they just don't get good press and don't have free access without a waiting period to guns.

So basically, I'm saying that YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT. Why you chose to disregard what I meant and focus on the way I said it is beyond me.

- Gurm

------------------
Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

**Guru** · 1 June 2001, 10:11

Originally posted by Gurm:

As for you Guru, I guarantee you that bad things happen where you live, too. If you want to go on pretending that they don't, that's fine.

- Gurm

What the hell are you talking about?

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OK this is just sick!!!! US people what are you doing?

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