Buying a new car; any suggestions?

[Schorsch]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurm:
As for FWD being "better in all situations" than RWD, I would challenge you to a few laps on a difficult track and we'd see. There's a reason that Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche, and Lamborghini have never and will never make FWD vehicles (BMW's side interests such as Rover and Mini/Cooper notwithstanding).

FWD is an American marketing concept. The idea is to get the weight of the car over the driving wheels. Well, in the Volvo it IS over the driving wheels. We have 45/55 weight distribution, 55 to the rear.

FWD is better for inexperienced drivers with mediocre tires in light snow. That is its only benefit. </font>

I don't think that FWD is an American marketing concept. The first FWD car built in large numbers was the DKW F1, a German car introduced in 1931. Today, most European car manufacturers have concentrated on making FWD cars. They wouldn't do that if it didn't have some advantages.

The (in)famous Rallye Monte Carlo has been won very often by FWD cars such as the Mini Cooper (three times) and the Saab 96 (two times), and I don't think those cars were driven by unexperienced drivers or had mediocre tires One definite advantage of having the weight of the car on the driven wheels is that traction is improved immensely. I can observe that every winter when the BMWs and Mercedes' are sliding around with their rear ends on the snow while all the cheap Fiats and Seats are driving away without any problems.

But, having said that, I agree with you in one important point: I'd take a used BMW over a new Jetta any day, too...

[agallag]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cbman:
BMW's Suck... My friend got into a small minor rollover and it didn't work again... Stupid Thing...
</font>

What exactly is a "small minor rollover"? I think if the car was at any point upside down, it's a pretty serious event. Lots of stuff would be bent and broken in any car that rolled over. Oh wait, just noticed the smiley. You're joking then, right?

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Andrew
Carpe Cerevisi

[cjolley]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurm:
- Increased maintenance cost due to complexity of mechanisms behind the steering wheels.
- Easy to send the rear end out since all the weight is in the front of the car... and impossible to get the rear end back once it is out.- Gurm
</font>

1, This is simply not true. A rear wheel drive car with independent rear suspention has a lot more suspention, driveline, and steering parts that require mainenence than an FWD car with the usual solid non-driving axle.
2, It may be that FWD cars throw their rear ends out as a general rule. But it sure isn't because the weight is in the front and off of the back.
That's just High School physics.
By that logic race cars would gain a speed advantage in corners by being made more massive.

Chuck

PS. I love Volvos and owned one for years. But, RWD Volvos suck big green donkey dicks in the snow :P
PPS. FWD is popular with car makers because it is significanlty cheeper to build.
The entire engine & drivetrain can be built off site, shipped in, and installed as a unit.


[This message has been edited by cjolley (edited 15 May 2001).]

[Gurm]

RWD Volvos go like stink in the snow with an appropriate set of snow tires.

Put Gislaved Nordfrost II's on all four corners of the car and it'll handle just fine.

As for "most European car companies" now going with mostly FWD, I think you're very confused. BMW makes exactly ZERO BMW-badged FWD vehicles. The "A-series" Mercedes isn't even available in the US, and I have my doubts about that, since I've never heard of it, and since the chief of DaimlerBenz was quoted less than a year ago as saying "We will NEVER produce a front-drive vehicle". He could have been referring to the US market, but I sort of doubt it.

Let's examine a few more European car companies:

VW - Has always made FWD vehicles. They even made the new bug FWD, despite promising repeatedly that it would be RERD (rear engine rear drive). But this is also the company whose cars have, for years now, cornered on 3 wheels. Oh well.

Jaguar - Ok, it's now owned by Ford, but... I don't see any front-drive Jags on their way down the pipe.

Rover - Is no more.

Porsche - RWD, AWD. No FWD. No plans for FWD.

Ferrari - RWD.

Lamborghini - RWD, AWD.

AUDI - AWD. Limited production FWD that are really just rebadged VW's anyway.

Peugot - Are they still in business?
Renault - Ditto?

Aston Martin - RWD only.

Bentley - RWD only.

Is this starting to sound monotonous? I'm sure that there are a dozen little pissant Eurocar companies I've forgotten. Merkur could still be in business making LWD (left-wheel drive) cars for all I know.

But anyone who makes NICE cars (Volvo has fallen by the wayside, sadly) makes RWD or AWD only.

- Gurm

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Listen up, you primitive screwheads! See this? This is my BOOMSTICK! Etc. etc.

[cjolley]

You'd have to hire a pit-crew to keep up with the hourly tire changes you would need to swap between regular and snow tires here in Oklahoma.
It never even occured to me
chuck

[cjolley]

OMFG
Don't buy a Rolls!
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scite...all010511.html
chuck

[Indiana]

I don't like FWD as well. No matter how good it's done there's always a greater influence on the steering when accelerating than with RWD. Besides i HATE cars with a big turning circle.
And the concept of RWD being better in the snow was due to the motor (and it's weight) being over the driving wheels. Now, any decent car should have roughly equal weight on the front and back wheels, near 50%/50% is ideal for handling, so this advantage definitely is gone.

One advantage of FWD, though: If the car begins to slide in a curve, you can accelerate with a FWD and hope it'll pull the car back into track, with a RWD all you can do is press the clutch and hope... (and if you have automatic transmission, you're f*cked off )

[agallag]

Gurm, you're exactly right about the volvos. My dad's 740 wagon is better in the snow than my fwd mazda.

As for the A-Class Mercedes, yes, it is definitely fwd.

Jaguar dodged the bullet on the X-type. It's based on the ford contour fwd sedan, but they put an AWD system in it. Phew.

Rover is not quite dead yet, but will be soon.

Now for Audi. The TT, A3, A4, and A6 come standard with FWD. Quattro only comes standard on the A8, but is of course an option on every other model. There are virtually no shared VW parts other than some engine choices either.

Peugot, and Renault are still very much in business, making FWD cars almost exclusively.



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Andrew
Carpe Cerevisi

[SCompRacer]

As far as what's better on a race track, it depends on the type of course. All things equal, such as power, weight, tire size, aerodynamics, and good front/rear weight balance, a FWD would never stand a chance on a traditional road course, but could on a high speed oval.

The biggest problem front wheel drive cars face in a turn is understeer, much more than with RWD vehicles. This is what keeps newbies safe, cause understeer is better than oversteer. Oversteer will cause tail out or roll overs more than understeer will.

With FWD, gradually reducing steering angle while applying power will allow you to rotate at the apex of the curve and drive out of it. If you continue to apply power while your tires are saturated, added acceleration will transfer load off of them and you can wash out the front. And forget about shifting until you've passed your maximum G in the turn cause you'll need both hands on the wheel. Especially on non-sanctioned exit and entrance ramps where bump steer from uneven roadways comes into play. With a FWD you have to drive, not drift out of a turn. I can tell you from experience that pushing some serious G's in a turn with a FWD keeps you busy until you've started to straighten out.

Your RWD vehicle is better equipped to handle high speed curves provided you have good front/rear weight balance and you have the power required at the rear wheels for the speed which you are pushing through the curve. Newbies here can get into trouble as RWD can provoke oversteer. Fortunately, many drivers ever push their cars to this point to find out though.


[This message has been edited by SCompRacer (edited 15 May 2001).]

[SCompRacer]

One thing you can add to Gurms list about FWD is production cost. It is overall cheaper to produce a FWD than a RWD vehicle.

[Alec]

More about European cars:

There´s also Skoda, which now belongs to VW, much like Audi. They´re all the same but the badges, basically.

Peugeot and Renault are VERY in business... they sell lots of vehicles.

There´s also ALFA ROMEO (FWD) and FIAT (FWD).

[The Rock]

After reading all this thread, it has occurred to me that I probably should have told you nuts that I don't plan on RACING with this new car. I plan on DRIVING it sanely. I do work for the RCMP ya know.

Hmmm. It was always my dream to own a BMW, and now you bastards have me second guessing that VW. Decisions, decisions. I'd be curious to know how a bimmer handles a cold Canadian winter. It can get BLOODY cold here, and that tends to make me hesitate to buy something 4-5 years old with little or no warranty left (even if it is a BMW). I learned to drive on an old '84 Jetta turbo diesel, and I like the way it handled and felt in the winter (yes, it was a loud, ugly bad-looking car, but it drove well and always started first turn). I'm gonna hafta do some looking into this pre-owned bimmer stuff. I always had the option in my mind more as fantasy than seriously considering it, but I think I should get some info soon.

Bart

[SCompRacer]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Rock:
....I don't plan on RACING with this new car. I plan on DRIVING it sanely.....</font>

Early on, I always got the two confused. It was the local Police that finally sorted it out for me and got me "on the right track."

I had an '86 Jetta. Was gas, 5 speed. Really decent little car.

[Wombat]

Hey Rock,
If you buy one of these "certified pre-owned" BMW's, you get two years of coverage from the factory.

[Schorsch]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurm:
RWD Volvos go like stink in the snow with an appropriate set of snow tires.

As for "most European car companies" now going with mostly FWD, I think you're very confused. BMW makes exactly ZERO BMW-badged FWD vehicles. The "A-series" Mercedes isn't even available in the US, and I have my doubts about that, since I've never heard of it, and since the chief of DaimlerBenz was quoted less than a year ago as saying "We will NEVER produce a front-drive vehicle". He could have been referring to the US market, but I sort of doubt it.
</font>

You may doubt it, but it's true: the A-series Mercedes is front-driven. (see www.mercedes-benz.de for details)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Let's examine a few more European car companies:

VW - Has always made FWD vehicles. They even made the new bug FWD, despite promising repeatedly that it would be RERD (rear engine rear drive). But this is also the company whose cars have, for years now, cornered on 3 wheels. Oh well.

</font>

The new Beetle is nothing but a Golf (Rabbit) with a different car body. I don't understand how anybody could have believed that the engine would be moved to the rear end.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Jaguar - Ok, it's now owned by Ford, but... I don't see any front-drive Jags on their way down the pipe.

</font>

You're right for now - the new X-Type is based on the Ford Mondeo but will be available with AWD only. But if some important guy at Ford decides that he needs a cheaper Jaguar model, you'll get your FWD Jaguar.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Rover - Is no more.

</font>

Wrong, they're still alive and producing cars (Rover 25/45/75; MG F).

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
AUDI - AWD. Limited production FWD that are really just rebadged VW's anyway.

</font>

Not true. Most Audis are delivered with FWD. Only the quattro models have AWD, and these don't sell in large numbers because they're so damn expensive. By the way, AWD and FWD Audis are the same models which only differ in the way they're driven.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Peugot - Are they still in business?
Renault - Ditto?

</font>

Yes, both of them, and you've forgotten Citroen.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Aston Martin - RWD only.
Bentley - RWD only.

Is this starting to sound monotonous? I'm sure that there are a dozen little pissant Eurocar companies I've forgotten.

</font>

Yes: Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Saab, Seat, Skoda. I wouldn't call these "little pissant companies" if I watch their sales numbers. And please don't call me "very confused". I live in Europe and I see what cars are parking in the street - and believe me most of them aren't Bentleys or Lamborghinis.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
But anyone who makes NICE cars (Volvo has fallen by the wayside, sadly) makes RWD or AWD only.

- Gurm

</font>

That may be true, but are these nice cars because they have RWD?

Schorsch



[This message has been edited by Schorsch (edited 16 May 2001).]