What a bunch of f***ing cowards.

[Helevitia]

see inline.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedRed
[B]I am saddened by this thread. I thaught that you guys would for the most part have more sense.

Recall your history, if you can.

Bin Laden feels he can win this, and has good reason. The USA has played this game right into his hands.

consider this, please.

1. Bin laden (and many, many in the Muslim world) feels that Isreael should not exist. Simple. Created in the 1940's, displacing hundreds of thousands of people from Jerusalem etc., to set up an American toe hold in the Middle East. Only the Jews who moved there felt otherwise. Britian opposed it, as did what was left of empire and most other stated round the world who mattered. America proved this time and again to these people by propping up israel since. (still to the tune of Billions a year, an excellent sink for the tax-dollar). I am not saying that I agree with this sentiment, but that is the feeling, however, would the french willingly give back Calais - they only lost that 400 years ago - not almost 2000!)



*** Where else were Jews supposed to go after they were massacred by Hitler? At least we tried to help. Jesus ****ing christ! This happened 50 ****ing years ago. People hold gurdges way too long. And of course we are going to give them weapons for many reasons inlcuding some you've mentioned above and why not? We helped them then, why can't we continue to help them against dumb****s that will continue to send in Martyrs and kill innocent people. Where is the justice in that? Why are we to blame when there are so many from all over the world killing so many others for stupid dumbass ****ing reasons! ****! ****! ****! Don't make the terrorists, martyrs, dumbasses and others look good and say we deserved it when we don't. Did I ever ****ing do anything? Did anyone other civilian do anything? NO! We are just as much victims as everyone else. I am tired of people pointing fingers at the USofA. As someone said in another post, "it's either US or THEM". And I rather it be them that gets the shit kicked out of.


2. Afghanistan has been invaded many time since the times of Alexander the Great, but never taken, even by him!!! The British tried (1906)- the first time Chemical Warfare was used, BTW. The Russians tried - they probably would still have lost, despite the CIA supplying Stingers (there estimated to be in excess of 15,000 still in the country!), which, unlike the Russian AAA guns, CAN lock onto enemy or allied planes!


***There is always a first for everything Also, what are we supposed to do? Sit quietly in our country and pretend the problem doesn't exist? We've waited too ****ing long as far as I'm concerned. Now we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.


3. The Afghan winter is comming in. This will hit the "allies" far harder than the Afghan fighter. The allies cant stay out in ships for ever - they will need to launch a ground attack to capture Bin Laden - the american people will want him killed (they will not try to capture him).These (the Afghan) people live in a culture of fighting, most males have guns (an AK47 costs around $20 along the border). An afghan soldier looks like a civillian - will you kill all the civillians to make sure? - I think not!!!


*** Look, I am the first one to say war is bad but I'm not gonna cry over a few lost civilians to support my country when we are getting attacked. And that's exactly what is going on, we are being attacked! Now the ****ing Anthrax thing. Why don't you go spend a few ****ing days in the government offices here in our country and sniff a few spores of Anthrax and spread around to your family and then come back here and tell me how you feel about it? You would be scared, pissed, frustrated, and so on...You would feel the need to protect yourself which is exactly what we are doing.


4. He is gambling that a prolonged attack on afghanistan will enrage the other Muslim countries - and he is right - Hundreds are dead in Africa already, Pakistan (a country which america claimed was assisting Terrorists- now a buddie - DOH!) a powder keg with a coup only 2 years ago.... Indonesia, whos president just called out against the bombings.


****Of course we are gonna try to buddy up with the rest of the world. I don't give a shit if it enrages satan. bottom line is, somone attacked us and we need to protect ourselves. There is nothing left to be said about that statement. If someone walked up to you and attacked you would you protect yourself? Hell yes you would!


5. Ok, so somehow the Mighty US beats the evil Talibhan - what do you do next? you still have to find Bin Laden.
What sort of Government do you put in its place? does the US do a somalia?


****who gives a ****. As long as they understand attacking the US or anybody else in this whole ****ing world is a very bad thing and they will be punished for it.



6. Bin laden does not believe that the US will stand for large numbers of body bags - and he is probably right in this respect.


****And your point is? Nobody wants anybody to die but we are at risk of losing a lot more if we don't get bin laden and the terrorists.


The fact is that the war IS destabelising the region - useful for Bin Laden. Pakistan is being shafted from the rear by India too.. (both Nuclear and Chemical capable countries)


****That's because India is a large holder of terrorists as well. They know it, we know it, and Pakistan knows it. They've been fighting forever anyway. Nothing has changed accept more media attention.


Please think about WHY these atrocities took place in the US. Those who did it had a reason, and until that reason is resolved, the like of it will happen again.


****It's not the civilinas fault! Why are we being punished for actions out of our control. You are trying to justify the WTC bombing and Anthrax crap adn to that I give you a big hardy **** YOU!


They are not powerful enough to face up to the American army.
Its not cowerdice - its a fact.


***Good, we will kill them quicker and get them the **** out of there.



America felt its first true terrorist outrage (this Anthrax will be your second, though I pray not as bad). I think America will have many more inflicted before we are through.... (I am thinking Panama, Colombia, Peru, Iraq, Syria, Lybia (they were bombed too, and I am sure havent forgotten), Korea, the list goes on. Any of these countries harbour terrorists who could 'have a go'.


***And they all deserve to rot in hell for scaring the shit out of poor innocent people.


I dont mean to pi** anyone off, its just the way I see it. I have lived with a low intensity war for 35 years.

****So the **** what, I lived homeless on the street and wondered if I was gonna live to see the next day. I don't tyr to add that in to justify what I am saying.


***I am tired of people trying to justify the WTC bombings and Anthrax crap. There is no justification for what has happened.

I am sorry Joel for the outburst but I bite my teeth everytime I read something.

[Pneumatic]

Umm. Anthrax can't be spread to your family unless they come into contact with it directly.

Other than that , YEAH!!! What he said (minus all of the profanity).

[Joel]

Well your right Helevitia. I guess being blamed for everyone else's f***ups comes when you are the strongest economically and militarily.

F*** ole binny boy and his preverted view of the Islam religion. Jews and Christians have as much right to, if not more so, the area around Israel as anyone else.

He says he wants the US out of the Middle East because we defile the land that is the birthplace of Islam religion and Muhammad. I say f*** them. IMO they defile the birthplace of Jesus Christ and Christianity and we were there 600 years before they were. Hell we waited 400 years the last time they started trying to conquer the world before something was done. Not this time.

Joel

[Paddy]

There are too many angy people in this world

One death does not justify another. Military or civilian.
I question if this is self defense...

[Helevitia]

No paddy, one death does not justify another but if someone was gonna kill you and you had the opportunity to kill him first, would you? Yes you would. I think we are justified in our actions to protect ourselves form future incidents which is what we are doing.

Dav

[KvHagedorn]

Woohoo! Go Dave, Go!

You rock, buddy!

You know, I hope someday in our future (God willing we all have one) we can sit down in a university and discuss this war, but this is not the time for any such discussion. It doesn't matter why they committed this atrocity or continue to commit others, it only matters that we use every means at our disposal to get rid of this scourge for good.

[omegaRED]

I fear the US is going to make another mistake by helping the Northern Alliance (if they help them, and they indirectly are ... ). Are they any better than the Taliban? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. I think the US (maybe together with NATO) should lead their operation alone in Afghanistan, and not get involved with ANY regional "Liberation Army" or whatever in ANY way, not militarily nor politically ...

I think bin Laden should be killed slowly and made to suffer for every single person that he or his Al Qaeda killed, I`m just saying that i find it strange that he was a good guy and freedom figther back when the Soviets were fighting in Afghanistan ...

[Helevitia]

that's because he smokes too much damn Opium he harvests and sells to fund the Al Queda and kill off all of the Heroin addicts around the world. Try and justify that! Not only does he kill 6k of our people but he has probably killed a lot more from Heroin overdose. man, people are fricken backwards.

[omegaRED]

Which brings me to another question ... why didnt anyone do anything about the drugs in Afghanistan until now ????

[Joel]

No the problem is that the US didn't stick around after the Soviet invasion to make sure that everyone behaved themselves. And for the past 8 years we've had a f***ing liberal ****ole in the White House who couldn't keep his dick in his pants long enough to realize that what we are having to do today should have been done long time ago.

Ole binny boy and his kind are a cancer to this world that has to be remove. And Suddum Hussie is part of that cancer. We should have taken care of him during the Gulf War but NO!!!, we listened to all the other whining countries in the Middle East and stop our advancement on Bagdad. Just as you would remove cancer from your body before it destroys the whole we have got to remove ole binny boy and his kind before they destroy the World.

He wants to try and bring us down to his level because he's too much of a stupid arrogant a**hole to try and improve himself and his other Arabs brothers that he says he is fighting for. And what he is proposing is not an improvement. Living in fear is never an improvement and that is what the Afghan people have been under for years and you see how far they have regressed.

Joel

[Joel]

And they really care so very much about the Afghan people.

WASHINGTON - The Taliban seized more than half of the United Nations' food aid in Afghanistan, seriously hindering international efforts to feed millions in the region as winter approaches, a U.N. official said today.


Catherine Bertini, executive director of the U.N. World Food Program, said Taliban soldiers took over two warehouses filled with wheat supplies in Kabul and Kandahar. No U.N. staff workers were injured or arrested.

''Our staff has been asked to leave and the military has taken over both warehouses,'' Bertini told reporters.

The loss of two out of six WFP warehouses late Tuesday in Afghanistan is a significant blow to its efforts to double the amount of food supplies reaching Afghans.

Bertini said if WFP fails to deliver 52,000 tons of food a month, the Central Asian country could face a ''humanitarian catastrophe.''

As the lead food aid agency in Afghanistan, WFP currently feeds some 1.7 million people a day inside the country and fears up to 7.5 million people could eventually be dependent on international aid to survive the coming winter months.

The United States is the largest donor to WFP operations.

Joel

[KRSESQ]

[quote]

"3. The Afghan winter is comming in. This will hit the "allies" far harder than the Afghan fighter. The allies cant stay out in ships for ever - they will need to launch a ground attack to capture Bin Laden"

As soon as it gets cold enough, Bin Laden is going to have to light a heater. Any bets on how long it will take to zero him with a heat seeker?

Kevin

P.S. http://etherzone.com/laden-lair.html

[ALBPM]

All this really shows is bin Laden doesn't even give a Damn about the Afghan people. He's just using them so he can fulfill his own selfish Fantasy about "his" interpretation of the Q'uran and and his personel Jihad.

He doesn't give a Damn about anyone else whether they be Islamic or Christian, Jewish, Budist or whatever. He wants his own little Holy War at anyones expense.

Paul

[Jammrock]

RedRed reply time,

1. Isreal was a created by the UK, not the US. In exchange for funding by an extremely wealthy Jewish businessman in London during WWI, the UK promised to give Isreal back to the Jews (don't argue about who was there first, it doesn't matter anymore). After the formation of the UN, Isreal and Palestine were formed as 2 nations on the same soil. Palestine decided they wanted it all and tried to kick the Jews out. They failed and Isreal took almost total control of Isreal. Isreal has actually expanded it's boundries several times, but it's the US that forces Isreal to give the land back. Without US backing Isreal would becaome a giant executioners block for Islam extemeists. It would bcomee the Hollocaust 2. Now that Isreal is there, only extermination can kick them out. Which would you prefer, extermination or attempts at peaceful co-exsistence?

2. All wars that have been fought in Afghanistan to date (beside civil wars) have all be conventional warfare. The US is not, and will not, fight conventionally in Afghanistan. They have been and will be fighting from the air and geurilla warfare from the ground. If there are any ground battles it will be fought by the Northern Alliance with US backing (mostly from air support). Only Afghans have beaten other Afghans in war, that's why the US is allying with the Northern Alliance.

3. There are two main factions involved, remember. On top of that, the US has extreme weather troops, especially in the special forces. If the Taliban or Al Qeada forces ever live to tell the tale of seeing a US ground trooper, then someone screwed up. The only US concern for winter in Afghanistan is trying to keep the Taliban from stealing the peoples food. And if the Taliban keeps stealing the peoples food, Afghanistan will take care of the Taliban for us.

4. One thing you fail to understand about the middle east, is that the different factions of Islam hate each other. Only allying faiths of Islam will get mad enough to act over the US attacks. Pakistan can't help, because if they betray the US's trust, India will attack them like a pack of hungry dogs. That pretty much eliminates any true Mid East allies the Taliban has...at least allies with an offensive army.

5. The Taliban won't fall until bin Laden falls, they go hand in hand. The Northern Alliance will decide the ruling government, the US isn't dumb enough to try and put in a puppet government. Puppet governments only lead to more wars. Somolia was only supposed to be a policing/humanitarian act. The military was only there to provide aide to civilians. I know because I have a friend that was in the Marines during the Somolia act. Unfortuantely, demented people like bin Laden thought the US was trying to enforce their ideas and government on the people so they needlessly attacked us. The US felt it was not worth the cost of US lives to try and save a people that didn't want their help, so they left.

6. Here you are wrong. The US sees this as a war, not as a policing action. In war time the US doesn't give up easily. And when innocent US blood is shed on US soil...there is always hell to pay. Casualties abroad are a known risk, casualties at home is war.

As for your closing remarks...you've missed the point that history teaches about war and people. 1) There have always been people who hunger after power, and there are always plenty of people foolish enough to follow them. 2) Countries that do not forgive and forget, doom themselves to destruction. After WWI, the Allied powers treated the Germans like dirt. This allowed a nut case like Hitler to take power. After WWII the Allies help rebuild Germany and treated them as friends. Germany is now one of the western worlds best allies. If bin Laden and extermist Muslims do not learn to forgive, eventually they WILL dig their own graves and the allied world will gladly put them there. Hatred only breeds more hatred. 3) Power hungry leaders cannot be reasoned with, only removed.

Jammrock

[The PIT]

War is bad and every sensible person knows that. However what do you do when the other side won't listen to reason and carries on attacking you and killing innocent poeple all over the world?
Use harsh language, shake their hands, put your head in the ground and your arse in the air?
Bombs go off target and mistakes are made. The differance here is that civilans here are accidental victims while the attacks by the terrorists are aimed at civilans in the most part. Even better they don't care if it's there own people that caught by the blast as well.
Bin Laden can end this striaght away all he's got to do is give himself up. It's that easy. No doubt he'll find something in the Quran that says he doesn't have too the sick puppy but at the end of the day he is evil and a coward.
RedRed since by stating that Israel shouldn't exsist you are part of the problem and a complete racist. Israel is there and so is America and the West and you got to get on with them.