Interesting article

[Wombat]

But all Israel has to do is load up one of the F-16s we gave them. Besides, Israel is just about the only country with an ongoing nuclear program that we <I>aren't</I> threatening/warning.

[Dogbert]

dZeus,

Disband the NATO and transform the UN into a capable presence with some actual military power that can make decisions based on the point of view not based on that of a single country.

hmm... let me see, with so many Arab countries in the secirity council, "Capable presence" means soldiers armed with videocams filming the abduction of Israeli soldiers from within the borders of Israel and then helping the Hizbollah evacuating their viachles ? Then to add a crime, they hide the movies from the government anf families and accept the fact that the Hizbollah doesn't allow red cross visits ?

The UN is a bunch of Pro-Arab cowards who doesn't force international law unless it suits them.
Too bad we can't reverse time and let Germany take over Euro-Afro-ME (the old Roman empire).
Europe is nothing but a self-righteous bunch of cowards that hides behind the UN (which is full of Arab countries) and their interests in Arab countries.
When the shit finally hits the fan, don't go crying to Ol' uncle sam to come for the rescue. Try going to the UN instead.


About the U.S supplying Israel, here's a little story:

Israel developed the first unstable fighter jet (called the Lavi).
The project was cancelled because it would compete with the F16 / any other single turbine US jet.
I'm not saying that the US is anyway depending on Israel, but I am saying that things are more mutual than one sided.

Check also about the Falcon deal Israel had with China that was cancelled under US pressure.


Don't be so god damn self righteous cause one day it'll come back to you, in your face. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[Dogbert]

Wombat,

Israel is also the only country which has no recorded nuclear tests (nuclear blast test), no nuclear power plants etc. etc. etc.

Try educating yourself a little more.

[RedRed]

Joel - I never called americans dumb...I dont even know where you got that from!

I DO believe that your GOVERNMENT is quick to resort to threats.

I DO believe that they withdrew their threats over Korea - potentially worse, MUCH worse, in terms of threatening the west were withdrawn during Grorge bush's visit last month.
Their missiles - (freely available with 4 kellogs tokens!) have intermediate range now..... What in 10 years time? They pose a much greater risk to stability than Iraq, but because the US cant bash Korea, it will bask Iraq instead.

The issue that most Europeans complain about/ get annoyed about is NOT that America takes action, it is the CONSISTANCY of its action.
It flouts UN resolutions (it hasnt paid its contributions to it since the early 1980's!), and yet it threatens other countries who do the same. Unless they are allies, where it will support them in their flouting! - As wombat mentioned Israel - Jericho II missiles (an american based design!) armed with Nukes in the middle of a warzone!
That INCONSISTANCY of action - (could it not be argued that the Muslim world need a counter to the Israel/US threat?) - is what annoys the rest of the world.
RedRed

[dZeus]

Dogbert, the point I was trying to make is that if a country wants to interfere with world politics at a scale the US is doing, it might be better to make decisions that are taken not solely from one countries point of view, but from many more, ideally representative from all countries involved.

I didn't imply that the UN in it's current form was the ideal entity to place this power at. In fact, I doubt wether the form I describe can ever be achieved.

[Dogbert]

RedRed,

I'm happy to tell you that the Jerico, as well as the Arrow aren't based on American design.
They were built with the help of American funding.

The Jerico was used to put an Israeli satelite in space launching west, something No other country was able to do with such a small missile.

Israel never threatened to nuke anyone, and please read my comments about Israel "Nukability" in my other post on this page.

[Dogbert]

Some food for thought:

Since the USA (which is a very large country) is entitled to one seat in the UN even though it's made of many different states. Should Europe after the unity be entitled to only one seat in the UN as well ???

Think about it, the USSR had 1 seat, now that they broke up, thay have many seats.
Since Europe is united and even have a European Union president, they should have only 1 seat as well !

You want democracy, don't you ?

[dZeus]

I completely agree with you that the one seat per country isn't a good solution.

Question is, what should they base it on? The amount inhabitants of a country? The BNP of a country? something else?

[KvHagedorn]

Too bad we can't reverse time and let Germany take over Euro-Afro-ME (the old Roman empire).

It never ceases to amaze me how many pro-Nazi Jews there are.

If only Hitler had not killed Jews, but sent them to the ME to kick Arab butt instead, the world would be better off now.

[KvHagedorn]

The UN is as powerful as such a fvcked up organization ever should be.

[Gurm]

Seriously. You want an organization that makes the kind of screwball, whack-job "declarations" that the UN does to have MORE power?

- Gurm

[dZeus]

I never said that, not for the UN in it's current form.

[Wombat]

Originally posted by Dogbert
Wombat,

Israel is also the only country which has no recorded nuclear tests (nuclear blast test), no nuclear power plants etc. etc. etc.

Try educating yourself a little more.

I am educated. I believe that when a Pulitzer-winning author laid out The Samson Option, he had it right. I also wouldn't be surprised if Israel is even still working on bio-warfare agents in Ness Ziona. I also tend to think that Jane's Intelligence does a good job of research, and this is what they found:
In 1997, Jane's Intelligence Weekly examined satellite photographs of what it described as an Israeli military base at Kfar Zechariah, concluding academically, "Israel's nuclear arsenal is larger than many estimates."

According to Jane's, the site was said to house about 50 Jericho-2 missiles, believed to have a maximum range of about 3,000 miles with a warhead of about 2,200 pounds.

According to the report, the installation contained nuclear bombs, configured for dropping from bombers.

Furthermore, five bunkers at the site were cited as capable of safeguarding 150 weapons.

"This … supports indications that the Israeli arsenal may contain as many as 400 nuclear weapons with a total combined yield of 50 megatons," the report concluded.

Israel developed the first unstable fighter jet (called the Lavi).
The project was cancelled because it would compete with the F16 / any other single turbine US jet.

Maybe you should educate yourself. The Lavi relied on US funding and US tech, and an absurdly low $550 million R&D estimate. The Lavi was cancelled when Israel realized it would cost a fortune, and that the US wasn't going to provide any more than the $1.5 billion it already had. Check <I>The Flight of the Lavi</I>.
And to top it off, Israel then sold US technology to China.

Former CIA director R. James Woolsey informed the U.S. Senate in late 1993 that he was "alarmed" by the military partnership between Tel Aviv and Beijing, and officially accused Israel of "illegally supplying China with classified defense technology from sources in the West."

Reading from a declassified CIA report while appearing before the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, Woolsey added: "We believe the Chinese seek from Israel advanced military technologies that U.S. and Western firms are unwilling to provide."

Woolsey revealed that Israel has been selling military technology to China for over a decade, and that the sales may amount to several billion dollars.

During subsequent testimony, Woolsey said the CIA is convinced China also is relying on its friends in Israel to assist in developing advanced engines for the next generation of Chinese combat vehicles. He said also that China will rely on Israeli expertise to create sophisticated airborne radar that employs super-secret technology that has been entrusted to Israel for another multibillion dollar joint project-production in Israel of the Arrow missile defense program which also has been funded largely by the United States.

"(These are} systems," concluded Woolsey in his testimony, "the Chinese would have difficulty producing on their own."

[RedRed]

Dogbert - dont go up against Wombat on Military tech.... he knows more than you could wet-dream on!

Having Nukes and Bio, and the warheads to launch them AND selling US secrets to Red China....Does this mean that Israel has also joined the 'axis of evil'?

Gurm
The arguments made by US supporters in atacking Iraq is the fact that it refuses to let forien 'spies' onto its soverign territory and examine its arms tech, in contrvention to the UN mandate. Well dauh! When is the last time the US or any other country let others walk over their most sensitive areas?
As pointed out, the US has broken MORE UN resolutions than Saddam.

Where is the consistancy of response from America? That is what the rest of the world is looking for from your leader.

redred

[dancray]

I bet this conversation would drop off if everyone was high. And some need to get higher than others.