New al-Quaida training tape found....

[Wombat]

The problem is that every one of the scenarios in this report is completely plausible to a nation of people who are still getting used to looking over our shoulders...

The bigger problem is that we're getting used to having the government look over our shoulders - and taking away many more of our rights.

[mutz]

...that's the way it worked under Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and lately Saddam Hussain...

[Dogbert]

Guys, I'm sorry to say this but we're living in different planets.

When I go to a mall, there's a guy at the entrance checking my bags. When Alice first came, she was startled about it and I told her it's to see if she's carrying anything suspicious (more specificly - a bomb).
For me it was kind of natural because it was always like this here.
Ever since I was a kid, like in Arfica they have anti-landmine education, the tv here showed "commerials" about how to treat suspicious objects in the street (don't touch, stay away, call the police).

Even a new grabage disposer is considered a suspicious object. A few years ago the old kind (a closed box into which you can't see) was removed in favor of open garbage baskets. Why ? Cause more than once they exploded.
I'm not walking the streets in fear, in the countrary, when I walk the streets in Europe I'm much more worried. If the IRA, the Basks or any other European terrorist gorup wouldld try anything from the old methods used here (before the suicide bombings), you'd see a whole shopping mall going up in the air.

I'm used to terror, it's natural, it's the law of the jungle. I'm not afraid, I'm cautious. The U.S had a false feeling of security, they had less than 10 jet fighters ready and armed to protect themselves. Canada is accepting hundreds of refugees every day without papers, do you know how many terrorists live in Canada and are given free access to the U.S through the Canadian border ?

Guys, wonderland is gone. The "world" as seen in the Bible has the ME in the center with a little of Africa, west Asia and some of the balkans. Check your map and see which countries are in this perimeter. Soon the whole world will be in the same state as this "biblical world". The terrorists no longer attack embassies around the world, they come knocking at your door instead and they don't come empty handed either. BOOM!

[The PIT]

No they won't. We will blown up by Yellowstone park instead.

[SpiralDragon]

i will only say one thing ... and i will keep it short and clean (so tha joel dosent close this thread)

have any of you seen "Wag the Dog" .. that ought to express what i realy have to say ....

Dogbert; we too have lived through out teror... from all the factions that where fighting against eachother here in lebanon... from the syrians, from the israilis, from the palestinians, and from the USS New Jersy... i understand how you feel

[az]

Dogbert, while I understand your view of things, I don't agree that this is the course it should - or will inevitably - go.

I really like it the way it is here at the moment - I'm free to travel within europe without hassle at the borders (hell, I once jumped from germany to france to germany to france, just to celebrate I'm able to do it), and I don't have to be "cautious" because someone forgot their bag. I just grab it, and give it back. It'd be a sad world for me if I couldn't trust people this far. And I refuse to let the terrorists win by seeding distrust and fear.

AZ

[Dogbert]

SpiralDragon and az,

Like I said, it's not just Israel, not only the Middle East, terror has plagues east Europe (Bosnia anyone ?) and is slowly creeping towards the rest of the world.
With all due respect to the magnitude of 9/11, the U.S and most of the West of Europe have seen Terror as singled out incidents here and there while in the Middle East it's on a daily basis if not on the hour.
This situation is and will spread all over.

About Sadam, do you really see what he's doing ?
The same thing Arafat does, he says Amen to "peace", accepts UN supervisors, then expells them, does his stuff and returns being a good boy before he gets slapped.
Arafat promises to act against terror each and every time, and lies about it each and every time. He condemns terror in public while sponsoring it privately.

As long and the U.N and Europe keep on being suckers for this attitude, they'll stay in power, Sirya will continue controlling large parts of Lebanon, the Hisbolla will keep south Lebanon in a constant state of war and people will go on suffering.

Could you imagine that ? Siriya, giving shit to Lebanon and Israel, sponsoring the Hisbolla, helping and dsponsoring Al-Quaeda is the president of the "Security council" in the U.N !?!?!?!?

It's like putting a cat to guard the cream.

[mutz]

From my experience and observation, most of the world considers "Western" types to be very peculiar, immature, idealistic and unrealistic. They consider us paradoxical, hypocritical, unpredictable and dangerous. Most of the Asians, Arabs and other non-Westerners I know have taken a lot of trouble to understand us, but I don't see many Westerners who do or are willing to do the same.

With a Chinese, all is fair in a negoitation, but once he has given his word that's it, unless you break yours. If you are an Arab's "guest" or "brother" he is obliged to take care of you, even protect you, unless you break the codex of guest or brother. Westerners tend to go through the motions, considering these things to be peculiar customs or traditions, but they fail to hold them in respect or be bound by them. They fail to recognize that these codexes have evolved over thousands of years and are taken quite seriously, and offenders in these societies can be punished quite harshly. So most Westerners think they have the money and the might to impose their will to whatever end they want. The've gotten away with it for a few hundred years, but now the tide has turned.

But this is all very irrellevant. All of history is full of rape, pillage plunder, subjugation, on and on. The only difference is that that was then and this is now. We are living now wanting what we want without consideration of the consequences because we are automatically in the right and good because we are us. So we create a resistant opposite pole that pushes back. It doesn't matter which pole you are on, you are part of the polarity, guilty or innocent, right or wrong. One day it goes this way, the next the other.

So everybody has their agenda. The US is "protecting and securing its interests", Saddam Hussain is restoring Bagdhad to its former and rightful glory which includes more than Iraq, India wants out of poverty, Pakistan wants out of it's poverty, Afghanistan wanted their religious fanaticism, Europe wants to re-establish itself, Russia wants to recover from the ravages of Communism and the Cold War while not being dominated by the West, Africa is a mess of corruption, ambition and disease, South America is a mess of corruption and bancruptcy, and Australia wants to goodonya drink beer. And everybody else is caught in between. I don't know what Arafat wants, but whatever it is, Isreal isn't going to give it to him, that's part of the culture.

...too many people fighting for what they think they need, and too few, if any, in the position with the wisdom to sort it all out.

Is there inhumanity? No. If humans are doing it, it's human.

Is anything good or bad? No, it's just a question of who's stronger or who's wiser.

What's gonna happen? Your speculation is as good as mine.

Are we gonna survive? Dunno, but I'll probably get dinner tonight.

Is is it all really stupid? Yeah, but that's what's happening...

[The PIT]

Originally posted by mutz
From my experience and observation, most of the world considers "Western" types to be very peculiar, immature, idealistic and unrealistic. They consider us paradoxical, hypocritical, unpredictable and dangerous. Most of the Asians, Arabs and other non-Westerners I know have taken a lot of trouble to understand us, but I don't see many Westerners who do or are willing to do the same.

Funny a lot of westerners feel that way about the east.

[Dr Mordrid]

I've found after working with and near members of many eastern cultures that they tend to follow those codexes only when it's convenient and in their vested interests.

Dr. Mordrid

[mutz]

...true. Today codexes are more for dinners and interests for after-dinner conflicts... one lump or two?

...and yes, neither East nor West seem to understand each other much, nor much motivated to do so...