An apology...

[Indiana]

Originally posted by Wulfman
just a thought:

what happens if somebody from the actual government in germany is compromised only a few days before a (important) election is going to happen? especially when the result is expected to be pretty close?

it looks a bit like foul play, even if she really said it. [cannot comment on that]

mfg
wulfman

Just that such statements aren't going to hurt any votes, but are fatal in a not so short-sighted point of view. Maybe he will win the elections by this, but what is he going to do afterwards - after having seperated from the rest of the "western" world. The US, The UK and even France all disavow this behaviour.

You got that right, there is much foul play going on, but into the other direction.
The media is massively promoting Schröder (just look at what those who make TV/radio/... in germany openly confess what they're voting for and you'll get the right picture).

Däubler-Gmelin absolutely CANNOT state such things in an official meeting no matter who's there, since in official meetings for the SPD she is seen in her function as Secretary of State. If she can't handle that, she is not able to do this job. And then she first wants to claim that she never did say such things, even under oath, but then backs out again when people that were there (and that are left-wingers as well, btw.) confirm the report.

According to newest reports she WILL resign maybe even today.

[Wulfman]

Originally posted by Indiana
Just that such statements aren't going to hurt any votes...

I cannot believe that most SPD followers appreciate her behaviour.

Originally posted by Indiana
You got that right, there is much foul play going on, but into the other direction.
The media is massively promoting Schröder.

to be honest I meant this could be a last-minute anti-schröder campain.

Originally posted by Indiana
Däubler-Gmelin absolutely CANNOT state such things in an official meeting no matter who's there, since in official meetings for the SPD she is seen in her function as Secretary of State.
According to newest reports she WILL resign maybe even today.

I agree. but our famous "Haider" has managed to survive quite long despite comments not much different from these.

mfg
wulfman

[GT98]

Originally posted by Gurm

- Gurm, proud citizen of the only country in the world to use nuclear force against another country... not once but TWICE. Boo-ya!

I think everyone missed out on the Scaracaism in this post

Anyway to nearly everyone forgets that an Invasion of Japan would have been VERY Costly for both sides. There was reports of 1 Million Casutsities just for the Allied Forces and who knows how many for the Japanese Army and its Civilian Population and not to mention how a divided Japan (between Russia and the Allied ala Germany) would infulance the post war world. I think the loss of 2 cities and most of their inhabitants was a better trade off then having the total contry rasied. Plus add in that my Grandfather was in that Theater of War...there could have been a good chance that I wouldnt have been around to day if Operation Oylmpic/Cornet kicked off.

[Gurm]

Yep. Wow, it's amazing that I can be sarcastic and NOBODY gets it. JEEEEEEEEZUS.

As for people in glass houses throwing stones, I thought I was pretty self-deprecating in that post.

Ant, my POINT is that EVERYONE has precious little clue what's really going on, but the tendency in these threads is for every European to claim to understand the American mindset and know EXACTLY what's best.

Then the Americans jump in with typical US "don't tread on me" and "we've got the bombs" rhetoric.

It just gets ugly.

I think that if you don't understand a situation, you shouldn't comment.

Now... for example, I _do_ understand the situation in Israel. I have friends in both Israel _AND_ "Palestine", and I know EXACTLY what's going on there.

As Lefty so blithely pointed out, I have NO idea what's going on in Macedonia. So I don't comment on it. See my point yet? ANYONE?

- Gurm

[Sasq]

I'm trying to bite my tounge, I really am. as for the 2 bombs dropped here. Please guys do some research about the timeline and research as to what state the Japense military/govt was in at the time. There are some interesting facts that none of us are ever taught in schools.

What I think would be a more interesting topic instead of "your govt didn't tell you this..." would be "We'll here is something my govt 'waged the dog about'".

Each of our own media and govt's 'wag the dog' to meet their own ends. I can write a nice long list of the hidden truths that the Australian Govt hid from Australians for a long time. (The stolen generation anyone?).

Wonderful quote from "Time enough for love" by Robert Heinlin (sp?) was "the opposite of a truth is a lie, but the opposite of an absolute truth could very well be another absolute truth".

The problem with the information we recieve from our respective govt/media outlets is its usually incomplete, most of us try to piece together the truth, but many times we come to a different conclusion.

I may not agree with what is said, but I do my best to repect others opinions, as they may have access to more/different information/truths then I do.

So please do remember that sometimes truth is just a matter of perspective relative to where you're standing.

Dan

[Ant]

It's the <b>ALL</b> and <b>EVERYONE</b> statements that are wrong, surely you mean one or two people have opinions that you disagree with not that the rest of the whole is ganging up on you and haven't got a clue

Try to be a little less extreme and a little more rational

Originally posted by Gurm

Ant, my POINT is that EVERYONE has precious little clue what's really going on, but the tendency in these threads is for every European to claim to understand the American mindset and know EXACTLY what's best.
- Gurm

[Jessterw]

I tend to agree with Gurm on some of his points and with Sasq. In the end it is a continous cycle of "the pots calling the kettles black" that has repeated throughout history.

Honestly we are really no more informed of events and people in other countries than before the invention of television and the Internet (among other mediums). They give the illusion that we are, but how much of what we see on TV or read on the web do we know to be fact? If you think more than very little you are fooling yourself. Most residents don't even know the complete story when it comes to events in their own countries, let alone another.

There's alot more I could say on this matter, but it doesn't matter as each of us will continue to believe what we choose. Ignorance is of course bliss; allowing us to spout off whatever anti-[insert group here] sentiment makes us feel more intelligent or whatever. I'm not pointing fingers, I personally believe everyone of us is guilty to one degree or another.

- Jw

[Admiral]

Gurm has a "strange" sense of sarcasm, or more like convenient.
And this isn't the first time it's causing problems.

[KvHagedorn]

One point should be made about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Two very crude and primitive atomic weapons wiped out two fairly large cities and killed or sickened most of their people. This is common knowledge. Pictures of these horrific events are etched on all our minds. Children have nightmares about it happening to them or to the world at large. People know now how horrific nuclear war would be.. and they found out with relatively small weapons. Can you imagine how horrific it would be if the military of the US or USSR had no real grasp of the human costs of playing with their little toys? If the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had not been so evident, the first nuclear weapon used in anger may have been a 15 megaton device... and it might have been used against a country that could respond in kind, in which case we would now all most likely be dead, and our planet a smoldering radioactive ruin in the midst of nuclear winter.

No one should joke about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.. or use them as some sort of fodder for irony. Thousands and thousands of innocent civilians died there in a most horrific and sudden way. Do not defame their memory, because in their quiet way, they were heroes and heroines to the rest of the world. Their deaths have sobered us enough to avoid the use of nuclear weapons for the past 57 years. Maybe they gave us a chance to grow up. Now we just have to worry about the fanatics.. it is the memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that is driving Bush to be so forceful with Iraq. No one wants these weapons in the hands of terrorists, and Europe is just as vulnerable as the US is. It is not something to be taken lightly in any fashion, and to "joke" that the US has "proven it has the will" to use nuclear weapons is in extremely bad taste. Do you want to give credence to those who think the US is some sort of rogue state? That was by far a stupider thing to say than what Däubler-Gmelin said. Watch that irony.. if it gets too convoluted it turns back upon itself. Read your posts and think twice about whether this is really what you want to say before you hit that submit button.

[GT98]

Originally posted by Sasq
There are some interesting facts that none of us are ever taught in schools.

Well an Interesting fact I find quite amazing is that the Japanese aren't thought about what really happened in WW2 and what their goverment did at the time....thats udderly amazing...whats the old quote....History Repeats itself???

[Indiana]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
That was by far a stupider thing to say than what Däubler-Gmelin said. Watch that irony.. if it gets too convoluted it turns back upon itself. Read your posts and think twice about whether this is really what you want to say before you hit that submit button.

Yes, of course but my main point is: if she was a private person, then maybe she could give statements like this, albeit stupid. But in her position as secretary of Justice thus being a representative of the whole nation she has to do some thinking before speaking - and if she can't do that she is not in any way tolerable in this position.

[Sasq]

no ones home govt ever teaches willingly the bad stuff they did in war.
I never said it was right, and most Japanese people know the truth about the war.
But then again were you taught?

Hence my point. Some things our own governments like to hide
Dan

Edit for those that don't know, I am an Australian living in Japan. the first link you can work out, the second link is to a part of Australias history that saddens me deeply. The full horror of which only came to light about 10~15 years ago.

[mutz]

...and we might not need be so hasty making assumptions about each other. Our relative anonymity embolds us to come out with things we might otherwise not.

I might play the monkey, but what is my reality? My computer is within ten seconds of any place in the world. My telephone the same. Who might I have on the other end?

I'm sitting in Europe, but my family is American since 1661, read Chesapeake by Stone. Two signatories on the Declaration of Independence, three on the Constiution. George Washington's aide de camp, the first US Supreme Court Justice, who I'm named after, a retired Sectretary of the Navy, one prominent US Senator, a member of UN commissions, US President's commissions, guest at the White House. Friends both spook and ex-spook, business, etc. Born in Virginia, lived in Blacksburg, Radford, Oak Ridge, Huntsville, Elkton, Ossining, NYC, Berkeley and north, Munich, Geneva, Rochester, Bombay, Poona, Hong Kong, Sydney, Zurich, etc., etc.

Am I anti-American? If someone told you you had a hole in the seat of your pants, would you thank him or hit him! Is someone in Hong Kong or Perth, blind, deaf and dumb? Is someone in Berlin or a drafty old cellar in Nottingham totally out of touch with reality?

Who cares? We're in touch with each other, which a great deal more than most. Argument is healthy, while insulting is unnecessary, but are we made out of paper? Laugh or get mad, it's just life!

Everybody a MURC has a whole life with all its content to share. Right or wrong, left or right, up or down, what does it matter? We are all a bit richer, more informed, a bit wiser for the contact.

I know I am.

[KRSESQ]

KvH:

Couldn't have said it better myself. The people of Hiroshima/Nagasaki bought more with their blood than just the survival of Japan as a nation and culture. They bought the global realization that these weapons are not to be trifled with. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are monuments to the horror of nuclear weapons, something that has not been lost on subsequent generations of world leaders. We Yanks may have to carry the onus of First Use of those weapons forever. But it was not by any means in vain.

Kevin

[Admiral]

It is not something to be taken lightly in any fashion, and to "joke" that the US has "proven it has the will" to use nuclear weapons is in extremely bad taste. Do you want to give credence to those who think the US is some sort of rogue state? That was by far a stupider thing to say than what Däubler-Gmelin said. Watch that irony.. if it gets too convoluted it turns back upon itself. Read your posts and think twice about whether this is really what you want to say before you hit that submit button.

Point taken, hope the day you have to use it again doesn't come.