Don't flame here

[Slougi]

Originally posted by Dogbert
The point which I fail to see is WHY fighting back would mean blowing up citizens ?

What else do the palestinians have left to do? And I agree to him, if I had to defend my country, people and culture, the future of my offspring, the existence of my nation, I most certainly would blow myself up if it helps at all.

[SpiralDragon]

the reason is pure and simple madness..... though i understand how a man may be driven to the brink of madness to sacrifice himself to save his loved ones killing other innocent civilians just doesn’t make maters any better..... do talk to the guy and in the context that lizz just laid out .....

[Slougi]

Hey, I'm a murcer now

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by Slougi

I most certainly would blow myself up if it helps at all.

Would you please enlighten me and propably many others here in the murc, how would blowing yourself inside an airplane/bus/kindergarden while killing a few (including your own self) and maiming many would help ?

[Dogbert]

Just to prove my point, what did the people behind the 9/11 gain by their actions ?
Oh, yes, they prove that the big strong U.S.A can be vulnerable too, as if we didn't know it.
They just prove that they are capable of pointless heartless stupid massacre and nothing more

[thop]

well if i were you i'd just talk to the guy. i mean dont jump in his face like: "hey i heard you want to blow the whole place up?" but get to the point eventually. who knows maybe he has a strong opinion about you too.
some communication can work wonders sometimes and relax the situation.

[Drizzt]

Originally posted by Dogbert
Just to prove my point, what did the people behind the 9/11 gain by their actions ?
Oh, yes, they prove that the big strong U.S.A can be vulnerable too, as if we didn't know it.
They just prove that they are capable of pointless heartless stupid massacre and nothing more

From an enemy point of view, no civilian is innocent when he belong to the enemy population. When two enemy population are facing, every living on each side think he is right and that if he want to survive he need to destroy the other.
It's in our instinct, as we are animal.

From the point of view of a normal human being who is somehow in peace, however, every war is stupid and nonsense.


But, look at this.
The fact behind 11/9 are totally different from what's happening into your country.
The 11/9 attack was a delibarate massacre without a meaning, brought by people who still think like a 1 thousand year ago barbarians, more like a child breaking the game of another child than a war move or a logical attack.

What's happening into your country, however, is a bit different.
You see the situation from your point of view, that is:
"Why they should massacre our civilians? We are not guilty!"


The main problem in that is that hebrew refuse to see the real matter here. That is, they have stolen the land of a population that lived there from a bit of years (I have not a book at hand, but I think it's more than one thousand year now).
So, this palestinians are only acting in defense of themselves. You know, many of them have children starving because their crop is a bit under Israelian houses...


So, as I said above, you should simply take a decision. If you think that your people have the right to starve innocent children, you should stay in Israel and confront with palestinian.
After all, they have right to defend themselve. And, as Hebrew has decided that palestinians lives where of not too much importance, they have the right to kill you all (even if I think that it is not a good thing to do...why the hell people don't stop killing each other...)

On the other side, If you think that what Hebrew are doing is wrong, simply leave the country.

[Drizzt]

(the above is simply an objective and historical-scientifical vision, I don't like people killing each other, read the above with the most flat voice tone you can, is in that way I have wrote it)

[RedRed]

Put yourself in the other guys shoes.

You would be willing to fight for your country.
There is no way that a couple of rock throwers are going to damage a tank. The reason they target the citizens of Israel is two fold.
one, they cant significantly damagethe military - the civillian population is easier.
two, they feel that this is no more or less than what has been done to their own citizens. The parents of the kids killed last month by the rocket attack on the appartment in Gaza probably felt the same pain as an israeli parent would.

This took (Is taking?) place in Northern Ireland too. Tit for Tat killings and murders - a smaller scale (2-4 killings a week), but for much, much longer......

Regards
RedRed

[mutz]

when people have nothing more to lose, or at least don't think so, sink in a depression, things get very tricky. When he imagines things are popping off all around him, why not pop off too? You don't know, he may have other personal problems too.

I would find some excuse to put my hand on his shoulder and ask him about something totally mundane, or about something he likes of is really good at. See where it goes from there...

He needs some contact with reality in an otherwise very surrealistic environment, something human that lives and breathes like himself. You also have nothing to lose by trying...

You'd be a real schmuck to miss your own wedding, no?

[KRSESQ]

""Would you please enlighten me and propably many others here in the murc, how would blowing yourself inside an airplane/bus/kindergarden while killing a few (including your own self) and maiming many would help ?""

""Just to prove my point, what did the people behind the 9/11 gain by their actions ?
Oh, yes, they prove that the big strong U.S.A can be vulnerable too, as if we didn't know it.
They just prove that they are capable of pointless heartless stupid massacre and nothing more""

I've said it before, but the concept of the Noncombatant Civilian is dead. Official time of death was concurrent with the launch of the first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile, although it probably actually died in Auchwitz or London or Dresdin or Hiroshima. We are ALL targets now to somebody fanatical enough about their cause to take desperate action. That makes us all responsible to one degree or another for our own self-defense.

Now that I have that off my chest, I have to agree with the others: TALK TO THE MAN. You may think you know him, but how well do you REALLY KNOW him? How many kids? Where was he educated? Where does he go to unwind after work? What's his favorite board game? Most importantly of all, try to connect with him as a HUMAN BEING and get him to connect to you as well. You may find that his greivance is genuine. You may even find yourself taking up his cause yourself, in a NON-VIOLENT way. Try to convince him that a non-violent solution is possible, but only if enough people on both sides believe it is and are willing to stand up against the extremists on both sides who want to just kill everyone and let God sort them out.

Unless our "Biased American Media" is full of beans, all the Palestinians really want is to be treated with some basic human dignity. Of course, they have to be willing to reciprocate...

Kevin

[RedRed]

Excellent reply, KRSESQ.

RedRed

[Dogbert]

Drizzt, I won't argue with you about history, I'd just suggest your read some other books as well , just to see the other view of things. I'm not here to argue who's right and who's wrong. I'm just stating that killing of civilians can't be tha answer or else it would be legitimate for Israel to nuke half the world in order to "reclaim the properties of Jews that either fled/ massacred / murdered in a pogrom or otherwise". Or maybe before nuking we shoudl begin by planting bombs in kindergardens ?
You may have not noticed it Drizzt, but you use historical data (I won't argue about the contents) to justify the death of babies, tourists and other human beings that have actually nothing to do with the situation.



Krsesq,

I *know* the man (not in the biblical sense ofcourse). He's sinlge (not married, no kids), quite intelligent (a good programmer too, so his logic circuits are working.) and a nice person overall. So what should I talk to him about ? The logics behind civilian deaths ? Those debated quickly escallates to who is guilty (see Drizzt's post) and who killed children where and when.
He's not the kind of person I'd go to the pub with or be close friend with ( I judged him as a person much before I even knew he was Arab).

[Dogbert]

Drizzt, here's an example why history (when actually does one start counting ?) doesn't have much to do with this argument:

The Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, sits down with Yasser Arafat at the beginning of negotiations to resolve the conflict. The Prime Minister requests that he be allowed to begin with a story. Arafat assents.

Sharon begins his story: “Years before the Israelites came to the Promised Land and settled here, Moses led them for 40 years through the desert. The Israelites began complaining that they were thirsty and, lo and behold, a miracle occurred and a stream appeared before them. They drank their fill and then decided to take advantage of the stream to do some bathing -- including Moses.

“When Moses came out of the water, he found that all his clothing was missing. ‘Who took my clothes?’ Moses asked those around him.

“‘It was the Palestinians,’ replied the Israelites,

“Wait a minute,” objected Arafat immediately, “there were no Palestinians during the time of Moses!”

“All right,” replied the Prime Minister, “now that we've got that settled, let’s begin our negotiations.”

we can argue history for hours, days and even years. But history is nothing but a bad excuse for deaths of innocents

[Joel]

I knew where this one was going to head and the people I expected to show up, did.

Joel