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**KRSESQ** · 23 September 2002, 08:43

Sorry. I was thoroughly spoiled by the novel and the original PBS version. This was a dirivative piece of tripe. James Caan was badly miscast as a character with no personality and the rest of the "actors" have no business in the business. And whoever wrote the screenplay makes me want to rethink Blacklisting.

So much of the original story was carved out, the result was virtually unrecognizable. A complete waste of time unless Mike and the 'Bots give it the MST3K treatment.

Remember: YOU asked.

Kevin

**Gurm** · 23 September 2002, 10:23

No no, that's what I thought. Maybe I was too tired/high and reading too much into the characters. And it did make a few illogical leaps that I had to fill in from memories of the previous versions. *sigh*

I think James Caan could have been fine as Haber, but you're right he wasn't. I don't mind Lucas Haas as George, but again he wasn't quite right. David Straithairn was good as Mannie, BUT the direction he received was poor... and the lines were poorer.

Lisa Bonet was badly miscast as well, I concur.

I'll re-watch it sober and awake sometime soon and see what I think then. There's a petition somewhere (can't put my hand on it at the moment) to A&E, begging them to NEVER release this on DVD. Sadly, I'll probably buy it. I'm a sucker like that.

- Gurm

**Gurm** · 24 September 2002, 05:40

Ok, rereading the book and being amazed how, much like Battlefield Earth, they seem to have sliced the entire second half OUT ENTIRELY. Jesus H. Christ I thought the movie seemed a bit short.

But I stand by my thought that with some tweaking it could have been good.

- Gurm

**Dr Mordrid** · 24 September 2002, 19:48

Yup...major screwup in how much they cut out. I couldn't belive they blew away so much (ex: the alien subplot).

Dr. Mordrid

**Gurm** · 25 September 2002, 06:13

Yeah, the movie just ENDED halfway through the book. In the morning when he wakes up in the cottage the aliens are supposed to be landing. Oopsie!

- Gurm

**KRSESQ** · 25 September 2002, 07:44

We must be the only three guys who watched it.

Kevin

**Gurm** · 25 September 2002, 08:01

There was an announcement about it in this forum. Maybe everyone else is ashamed of having seen it.

I dunno. I still think the imagery was VERY good, if nothing else.

- Gurm

**Dr Mordrid** · 25 September 2002, 11:18

Want to see it right? Get the DVD (recently released) of the 1980 PBS version.

Lathe of Heaven DVD - Amazon.com

Much better.....

Dr. Mordrid

**Gurm** · 25 September 2002, 11:53

I know. I want to see that.

Well, I just finished the book (again), and I am have mixed emotions about the movie.

1. I hate it (HATE HATE HATE) when they rearrange a story to make it "flow better" on the screen. Most of my complaints about the way Peter Jackson is handling LOTR are due to that. So when they take stuff from the end of a book and put it at the beginning of the movie, that PISSES ME OFF.

2. I can see why they left out the aliens. In fact, the entire second half of the book seems... hmm... it was good, but it was mostly George talking with the aliens and making up his mind on how to deal with Haber. And the aliens didn't exist before, so they were really just his own subconscious (or representations thereof), so... I think that they would have gone WAAAAY over 2 hours if they had included the aliens in any kind of non-trivial manner.

3. If we suppose #2 to be correct (that they couldn't do the aliens properly) then it becomes understandable that they simply snipped the events between George going to sleep in the cabin, and George going to sleep while Haber is messing stuff up.

So there. In 3 points I can see why they made some of the choices they did. HOWEVER...

4. They REALLY failed to make it clear that the world was NOT better off every time Haber got George to make a change. The ESSENTIAL theme of the book was George's ongoing realization that the world was NOT a better place every time it changed, and Haber's continued insistence that it WAS. This conflict comprised... oh... 75% of the book.

5. The movie did NOT do a very good job of showing that anyone who is THERE when George changes something KNOWS that it changed. The book makes a very big deal about Haber's mental struggle with reality, and Heather's as well. The movie passes it off in painful pauses between more painful dialogue.

*shrug*

I will rent/buy the original PBS production. I've heard that, barring bad circa-1980 special effects, it's very well done.

That this new one wasn't is really quite a shame. It had promise, really it did. As I said before, the imagery stuck with me. Despite having read the book previously, I incorporated a lot of the imagery from this version into my re-reading, and found the book more enjoyable for it.

- Gurm

**KRSESQ** · 25 September 2002, 12:53

DVD!! Awesome!!!!

''"2. I can see why they left out the aliens. In fact, the entire second half of the book seems... hmm... it was good, but it was mostly George talking with the aliens and making up his mind on how to deal with Haber. And the aliens didn't exist before, so they were really just his own subconscious (or representations thereof), so... I think that they would have gone WAAAAY over 2 hours if they had included the aliens in any kind of non-trivial manner. ""

Au contrair. The aliens taught George how to control the "effective dreaming," indicating that they had experience with it. Therefore the aliens' existance must have been independent of George's effective dreams. In fact, the aliens may have been sub-consciously summoned by George as a call for help in stopping his torment.

If one wanted to go to the trouble, one could make a convincing case that George and the realities he created were a direct or indirect result of the aliens' effective dreaming!

(But I'm too lazy so I won't.)

Kevin

**KRSESQ** · 25 September 2002, 12:56

Incidently, I think most of the faults with the original TV movie have to do with most of the budget going toward licensing the work (with Leguin looking over their shoulders as "Creative Consultant") and toward the stars' salaries. Nearly all the special effects were created using relatively inexpensive video-control methods (imaginative chromakey and such).

Kevin

**Gurm** · 25 September 2002, 18:18

Au contrair. The aliens taught George how to control the "effective dreaming," indicating that they had experience with it. Therefore the aliens' existance must have been independent of George's effective dreams. In fact, the aliens may have been sub-consciously summoned by George as a call for help in stopping his torment.

I don't necessarily agree with you. Le Guin makes the point several times (both spoken in dialogue and thought by George) that the aliens JUST DIDN'T EXIST before.

In fact, at one point George wonders why the aliens all are being so nice and helpful to him, and he says (essentially) "ah yes, I dreamt them up, they're part of my subconscious, so of course they're on my side". Then he goes on to wonder why the whole WORLD isn't on his side, since he has dreamt and redreamt that up as well. Then he realizes that maybe it IS on his side. After all, he isn't dead, despite having destroyed the entire world at least once... etc. etc.

- Gurm

**KRSESQ** · 25 September 2002, 18:32

Gonna sit down and reread the novel. I was left with the impression that the aliens and George existed in two separate realities that intersected during one of George's dreams.

Kevin

**Dr Mordrid** · 25 September 2002, 22:26

In either case the aliens interaction with George was to me a crucial element of the story that basically grounded it. Not the kind of thing that should be relegated to a comprimise character (Manny) invented during a third-party re-write

Dr. Mordrid

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