Europe and US relations

[mutz]

...I have a little something I try not to forget:

"Whatsoever you give energy will get that much stronger. You can rarely take it back, but you will certainly get back, just perhaps not in the way you had thought. It's good to use a little wisdom in what I give energy."

Nations and individuals have played footsy with each other over the millenium, looking to achieve some advantage, sometimes innocently, sometimes naively, cleverly, manipulatively, falsly, whatever, but footsy does not always end up in bed.

The US, officially, unofficially and privately, played footsy with Stalin in Yalta, Malta and in many secret huddles, dividing up Europe before the war was even over. Most of it backfired in the US's face, but it was too late to take anything back.

The US, Britain and others have played footsy in the Middle East since oil became of importance. The US played footsy with Saddam Hussain when they thought it would bring them some advantage. The US was so busy brooding their eggs, they didn't notice the cuckoo they were brooding too.

Et cetera ad infinitum.

The point is that whatever you give energy, you're gonna get it back.

[RedRed]

KV
We probably do agree on most things!

I was tired - 2AM my time - and appologise unreservedly...

Re reading it, it took a big man not to start a flame war - I was out of order. Thanks again.
RedRed

[Joel]

And when the trouble comes they don't take responsibility.

That right there is probably the main point. No one is taking responsibility. Those within the circle as well as those outside the circle. The Governments as well as the individuals. Just look at this thread. So much blame gaming.

Joel

[Joel]

We as humans have learned too well that it is easier to blame someone else than to face that person that looks back at us everytime we look in the mirror. I think I remember a line from a song that said "Let there be peace, and let it begin with me.".

Joel

[az]

I think that's one of the reasons most europeans don't want war, Joel

AZ

[ALBPM]

America (and this is NO attack on the country) is in the early stages of its empiric history. For the best will in the world, it is projecting its power.

I don't know if I'd call it Empirialism. I think what is happening is the U.S. has to go back and clean up the "shit" it created during the "Cold war" era. We now have to go in and "remove" the dictators who at the time were "good " anti-communists. Noriega is a good example...plus the other anti communist despots the U.S. helped/aided during the cold war era in Central and South America. Good Gawd we (the U.S.) created a big shit pile down South to keep Castro in check.

It will take some time to undo the damage of the Cold war era.

Paul

[Joel]

And you think we do????? For the most part we don't but we know that he does. He's already been given the options of how to stop it and as someone else say he has been thumbing his nose up at those options for over 10 years now. There comes a point in time when someone has to put their foot down. Unfortunately because the US is the current world power we are the ones that are being made to look like the big mean ugly ogre on this issue.

Kind of like when you were a kid and you did something wrong and your mom said 'just wait til your dad gets home'. Do you really think he wanted to whip your butt?? Probabaly not, but he knew it had to be done even if it did make him unpopular in your eyes. He just hoped that one day you would grow to understand.

Joel

[az]

Joel, I didn't say US citizens are longing for war (although sometimes I get the impression - but I don't think anyone in their right mind would deem war as a good thing - more like maybe fighting one evil with another evil). I'm just not sure about your president.

And I agree that if Saddam does not allow UN inspectors to visit every site they want, he SHOULD know that this will have consequences. I'm just not comfortable when one single nation forces its will on any other nation (even though I might agree with that nation). That's what the UN is there for, and yes, maybe the UN should reconsider their stance when it comes to dealing with threats.

Should I see the need, I will defend myself - but I will not shoot someone that stepped into my yard just because he might be a burglar.

I'll say it again: You might get the impression that the world wants the US to be the "world police", but I can tell you this is not the case. This really is what the UN is for, and I would feel much better if those affairs would be handled by the UN (In which the USA has a lot of weight).

You are scared because you fear Iraq might ignore treaties that forbid saddam to have weapons of mass destruction. I would be scared of that, if I believed it, too, but I am also scared of the USA ignoring treaties at will. This is NOT the kind of police I want to see.

AZ

[mutz]

...well, I'm putting my money on Colin Powell. He's been walking the razors edge for a long while now, and it looks like he's got the inspectors and the UN ready to go for strict inspection and implementation. A situation where the laundry gets washed and the dog stays on the leash.

[Joel]

You are scared because you fear Iraq might ignore treaties that forbid saddam to have weapons of mass destruction.

Why should I be scared??? According to you he doesn't have the ability to reach me with his WMDs but he does, according to former research scientist who have worked on his programs, the ability to reach you. I hope and pray with all my might that you are right but if not I will do everything within my power to see to it that even your little butt is protected, even as ungrateful as it seems to be sometimes.

It's an unfortunate reality but sometimes the best defense is a strong offense.

And don't get me started with the UN. If the UN had any real balls we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

Joel

[K6-III]

Seeing as the UN is subject to the nations on the security council and is basically broke, it inherintly lacks the features necessary to "have balls"...

[KRSESQ]

""regarding nation building is there a successful example example in recent history? ""

Damned few. The one most successful example that comes to mind is the US rebuilding of Japan after WWII. We were so successful, in fact, that Japan went from being a major military adversary to being a major economic adversary. It would be most helpful if we could study the rebuilding of Japan in microscopic detail to figure out how the same or similar techniques could be applied to other nations in different situations.

I admit that I don't know nearly enough about the history of Cyprus, but I do know that Britain has a long history of downright spiteful behavior toward its former colonies.

""You might get the impression that the world wants the US to be the "world police", but I can tell you this is not the case. This really is what the UN is for, and I would feel much better if those affairs would be handled by the UN (In which the USA has a lot of weight)""

Its true that providing global "Police Actions" is the UN's job. Unfortunately, even under the auspices of the UN the task usually falls upon whoever has the biggest guns.

Kevin

[az]

Joel, please talk to me, not my butt. As you said, it's a little ungrateful (Just a little reminder to please refrain from namecalling )

I'll post my thoughts tomorrow, I'm too tired right now and would likely only post BS

AZ

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by KRSESQ
""regarding nation building is there a successful example example in recent history? ""

Damned few. The one most successful example that comes to mind is the US rebuilding of Japan after WWII. We were so successful, in fact, that Japan went from being a major military adversary to being a major economic adversary. It would be most helpful if we could study the rebuilding of Japan in microscopic detail to figure out how the same or similar techniques could be applied to other nations in different situations.

:Shakes Head:

There's no magic ingredient. It's called character. The Japanese had it. Most don't. End of story.

[KRSESQ]

One must not overlook other factors: WWII killed off most of Japan's most fanatical fighters and left the civilian population so war-weary that almost any occupation was preferable to continued conflict.

Second, the occupation was commanded by Gen. MacArthur, who understood the Japanese very well and was able to tailor the reconstruction program to their needs. We could use a few people like him today.

Kevin